TIG XCIII - Betrayal at Henneth Annûn (Game thread)

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lottie

You know, I didn't even realize that I was following Agan's comment when I said mine until I saw that bolded in your post! It's the sort of thing you pass over when reading the rest of the post, but sticks in your mind...now I'm wondering if my thinking G55 suspicious was even my idea in the first place, or just my subconcious picking that up.

I can't make up my mind on this one. The honesty looks good, but then again, I'm not sure what's so very terrible about picking up an idea someone else voiced first. Generally, if you're innocent and suspect somebody for a reason, realizing that someone else has made the same point shouldn't necessarily cause you to backtrack, least of all this hastily. Whose idea some point originally was doesn't really matter if you find it valid. Then, later on, she returns to suspecting Gal, which is logical, but doesn't make the post quoted above make any more sense.

Originally Posted by Boro

Now surely, one who was actively annoyed by the silly unproductivity of the early posts would not add further to it by making joke suspicions?

Well, looks like we have a problem then, given that that was pretty much what I read Agan's first post as. (Anyway, Boro, hope you're all right, you know we love you.)

Originally Posted by Agan

You're also starting to sound like Greenie. In a bad way.

Is that possible?

To summarize some general thoughts and feelings -

- Agan and Boro will both get a pass from me today, if only out of gratitude for giving us something to talk about, but more prudently because I find both of them rather more innocent than not at the moment, or if one is a wolf I'm not sure enough which it is.

- Actually, what was originally a purely Agan-Boro-thing has expanded to involve also Lottie and Gal. I am speaking, of course, of the affair of Lottie suspecting Gal, initially basing her suspicion unconsciously on Agan's, later bringing up further points against her. The points are valid enough, but the thing is, Gal is another very easy Day 1 lynch which makes me uncomfortable with the whole thing.


EDIT: Gah, x-ed with a host!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I can't make up my mind on this one. The honesty looks good, but then again, I'm not sure what's so very terrible about picking up an idea someone else voiced first. Generally, if you're innocent and suspect somebody for a reason, realizing that someone else has made the same point shouldn't necessarily cause you to backtrack, least of all this hastily. Whose idea some point originally was doesn't really matter if you find it valid. Then, later on, she returns to suspecting Gal, which is logical, but doesn't make the post quoted above make any more sense.

It wasn't so much that I was alarmed that Agan had made the same point, but that my first line was practically identical to hers ("Jumpy, are we?" and "Jumpy much?"). I found it a bit alarming that I could post something so similar to what she'd said and not have realized it - plus I didn't want to follow someone else's points so exactly and unconciously when I can't say for absolute certainty that she isn't trying to mislead me.

[Galadriel55]

At least one of those people pushing my lynch is a wolf. That much is clear. If I survive I'll look at them carefully, especially those who were trying to pull the psychology trick of saying that I'm to be lynched for ABC reasons without saying it outright, or concluding that I'm not suspicious enough.

Edit: xed with Greenie

[Galadriel55]

This looks very last minute...

Edit: xed with Agan

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

That's exactly my scruple with him, though! He's sensible, yes, but the trying to remain objective is opportunism of sorts, isn't it? Leaving all doors open, waiting to see which looks the most promising?

Yes that's true, it's just that it's so much easier to just latch onto someone else's suspicion, at least if you do it well enough not to get caught. I'm actually not sure if I've ever played with Rune Son of Fenrir though, so I don't presume to know what he'd do as a wolf.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

At least one of those people pushing my lynch is a wolf. That much is clear. If I survive I'll look at them carefully, especially those who were trying to pull the psychology trick of saying that I'm to be lynched for ABC reasons without saying it outright, or concluding that I'm not suspicious enough.

I'm pretty sure that they (or we, if it please you ) will be looked at hard enough even if you die if you turn out innocent.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Because I don't get it!

I live on paradoxes. I can try to explain it properly tomorrow if we're both alive, or if you're interested in hearing it even if you're dead, but more often than not I can't justify my way of thinking.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Is that possible?

No. It's not and you know it. And yes Gal it was a compliment, even if a slightly dubious one.

I am worried about Greenie because while she's as sharp as always, she actually strikes me as innocent which is far from typical, as those who've played with us before can attest.

Originally Posted by Loslote

It wasn't so much that I was alarmed that Agan had made the same point, but that my first line was practically identical to hers ("Jumpy, are we?" and "Jumpy much?"). I found it a bit alarming that I could post something so similar to what she'd said and not have realized it - plus I didn't want to follow someone else's points so exactly and unconciously when I can't say for absolute certainty that she isn't trying to mislead me.

I was myself slightly concerned about you because of what Greenie just said but figured out the similarity between our comments and decided to let it pass.

[Inziladun]

I hate these Day 1 decisions.

I also hate making long lists, so I'm just noting what jumps out at me.

Like I said, Agan and Boro are off the table toDay.

I can see the merits of the G55 suspicion, though I also agree with Greenie that G55 has been a frequent target for the baddies to lynch. I might vote for her, though it seems too easy somehow.

Bom is being a bit more cagey than his usual self, I think, but it could be a time issue. I haven't been here myself toDay as much as I'd like. Like G55, he tends to garner quite a bit of lynching attention as a rule, but even more so. I don't think I'd want to go for him toDay, with the lack of anything else from him to go on.

I'm rather comfortable with Greenie.

I haven't seen nearly enough from Nog to have an opinion.
Same for Glirdy.

Lottie seems innocuous, and I can't really fault her for the G55 suspicion, though as I said a G55 lynch could be a worthy BN (Beastly Nosebag) endeavour.

Shasta is as enigmatic as ever to me. It usually takes time for me to get a handle on him.

Sally has been popping in and out, but I'm really hard-pressed to recall anything in particular she's said. Could be voteworthy as a submarine.

Rune? Eh, what I've seen looks all right.

x/d with all since #93.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I can see the merits of the G55 suspicion, though I also agree with Greenie that G55 has been a frequent target for the baddies to lynch. I might vote for her, though it seems too easy somehow.

I feel your pain.

I'm really liking Inzil. I know it might be a mistake, but he looks fairly good to me at the moment (you know they say he looks like me, eheh when will I get tired of this joke?)

I don't like Bom, but then again I never do. Gal still seems like my best bet.

[Aganzir]

++Galadriel

Suspiciousness over inactivity this time around.

edit: highlights! Sorry!

[satansaloser2005]

I did say when I joined this game that I wouldn't participate in an arms race.

++Bom

Revenge votes are just tacky.


EDIT: x'd, and I care not with whom (though it was since my last post)

[Inziladun]

Darn it.

++G55

Looks worse than Lottie, I hate voting Bom Day 1, and it doesn't look like I'll have any takers on Sally. I'll not waste my vote.

[Pomegranate]

Glirdan has a point here, which has similarities to the point Greenie was after yesterDay. However, Lottie was the first one to come up with a lot of the points about G55, first one to actually start accusing her, and that would seem such forwardiness that if she was a wolf and knew G55 to be innocent she should've avoided. That kind of action would (and probably will) put her in the spotlight.

I think we should keep frying Lottie a bit, to see what she's up to, but I myself worry more about the follow-ups. Especially Inzil. In her voting-post, she says (gosh, I'm so bad with these, my apologies for everyone who changes genders in my posts) :

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Darn it.

++G55

Looks worse than Lottie, I hate voting Bom Day 1, and it doesn't look like I'll have any takers on Sally. I'll not waste my vote.

"I don't have any takers on sally"? I don't think she ever suggested voting for sally, or suspected her, unless it counts that in her list she mentions "could be voteworthy as a submarine", this being on the penultimate place on her list. This mentioning sally and the others in the voting post seems to me more like trying to hide the fact that she is voting for G55, like she would be reluctant. However, she and Agan are the one who finalise G55's faith by their last-minute votes.

And actually, Glirdan, I think its good that you're suspecting me. I think I've gotten off the suspect list for long enough by being a newbie. Not that I would want anyone to especially think I'm a baddie, but I think now since its Day 2 we should broaden our radar to anyone, not just the couple of the loudest ones.

[Boromir88]

I suppose I should look at the G55 business of Day 1, since I'm kind of kicking myself for not being in a position to possibly save her from the noose, and seeing as she turned out to be Anborn, her posts will be the most trusty to follow and innocent intentions.

Aye, that's the rub. You can only truly trust someone once they're dead, but it's a bad dilemma because lynching someone to see if you can actually trust them is completely counter-productive.

Seriously, though it's appallingly silly this place is coasting along, seemingly fine with the fact Anborn was lynched.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

OK, lets go over Galadriel's activity then.
Lets meet back here in 30-45 minutes with our thoughts.

(Just saying that I am here and should remain so until deadline)

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Shasta

I'm going to ignore that comment for now, save for one of my own about stones and glass houses

.

Is this your way of trying to play nice with me for a game? Because you know that will not happen, especially since I will never trust you in WW after our games at Bostonmoot. I'm not saying that I'm going to go and vote you for having been silent yesterDay, because that would make me a hypocrite, which you oh so subtly pointed out. But I wouldn't mind hearing your own reasonings for voting G55.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Eh? I'm not really sure what you're saying here, because it looks like you're agreeing with Boro in one breath and then suspecting him in the next.

1) Nowhere did I say I believed him innocent. If anything, I have less trust for Boro in these games then I have for you.

2) I agreed with him in thinking this pack is confident and bold. Which is Boro in a nutshell. We would be crazy to fully trust him. And yet, I did not outwardly say that I suspect him. I was pointing out a fact: Boro likes to steer conversations to his own benefit, much like tp, only with less ego. Noggins death on Night 2 is sure to be a conversation starter for numerous reasons, and one that a BN Boro could start and steer in any direction he chooses.

3) I also mentioned Sally in that post, or did you miss that?

Originally Posted by Shasta

This is an issue I have every game - I don't understand why people decide not to look at the information that's right in front of them. Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

Originally Posted by Bom

from Shasta, I do believe the problem is: what information? Nog made a total of four posts, all substance-less with the exception of a statement that he thinks both Boro and Agan innocent. No suspicions, and nobody suspected him.

I am definitely more inclined to agree with Shasta in this regard. True, Nog himself hasn't left us much to go on. But the Nightly death is always how we get the ball rolling the next Day as well as who voted for the lynchee the Day before. True, it will be harder for us to try and make any semblance of an informed opinion on Nog due to lack of information, but it's always been work with what you have, no matter how little information you have.

EDIT: Xed with Boro and Rune, who I will join with in looking over G55 having not done so myself in my read throughs.

[Aganzir]

Sorry for being late. School happened, and a good book, and painting (I helped a friend finish a piece called 'Two Limes Waiting for a Bus in the Rain After a Rave'). And then I came home and had to spare a minute or two for Benjen Stark who appeared on Lommy's computer screen about the moment I stepped through the door.

Lottie, here's a song for you. It has made me think of you ever since I first heard it, but I've never remembered to post it to you.

Gal, I'm sorry. I was reading your posts with thoughts "She seems somehow jumpy... but in a different way from last game, where she was a gifted!" and even though your last posts made me vaguely uneasy with the course I had decided to take, I didn't want to drop it because, you know, Black Númenoreans want to live too.

And I also disapprove of the Nog kill as I happen to disapprove of no trace kills in general (at least if they involve a player who's normally vocal and helpful, to the extent Nog can be said to be helpful ).

Originally Posted by Boro

Confident pack of wolves it would seem.

A coward pack, I'd say. If Nog was still alive, we could at least have deduced he wasn't a BN.

Originally Posted by Boro

That is what has me worried the most at the moment...that is there seems to be a lot of "Agan and Boro are probably both innocent" going around. It could easily be true, of course, but that seems to be the same conclusion everyone's reached, which is kind of strange...Agan, what do you think?

The options are, the wolves know we're both innocent, or you're a wolf and know I'm innocent. Of course we could both be wolves, and that would be awesome, but unfortunately it isn't the case (next time we'll totally do this). If option A is correct, either the wolves are not among those who've concluded we're innocent, or they want to keep a low profile and play nice with us. In any case, it would be more useful for them to set us against each other.
If Boro is a wolf, he may have several goals: try to exonerate himself by staging a row with an innocent, drag me down with him, trick me into believing he has a masterplan I could help with, get a lot of "a wolf wouldn't do that" kind of attention... you name it.
I know Boro is up to something, but that isn't anything unusual because as I said, he's never idle in WW. I just haven't decided yet if he's Gary Oldman before or after he was bitten (in other words, for those who are too ignorant to cultivate themselves with Elvish arts, I'm not sure whether the something he's up to is good or evil).
In any case, it worries me that Boro is so very conscious about the fact that several people think we're both innocent. It's a pre-emptive defence of sorts, and reminds me of saying "This is not a very good painting yet, the shading is bad here and I have to get these colours fixed there" before the teacher manages to comment on it, just so no one can say you weren't aware you were doing something wrong, if you know what I mean. There's also a risk the seed of doubt he's sowing ("everyone thinks Agan is innocent ai ai ai this is fishy or is it yes no yes no!") bears fruit and he manages to turn people against me when we can't afford to lynch many innocents.

Originally Posted by Boro

Basically my head is about to explode with "do I continue pursuing Agan or is everyone right, that she's innocent too."

If you trust everyone (with three BN's among them) rather than your innocent instincts that spotted the classic BN trick in my first post, then you had better continue pursuing me pretty soon before I can convince the said everyone to consider me innocent beyond any doubt. But rest assured, I'll make sure your head explodes.
As for the tanlines, do you honestly think there were pictures that did not show your tanlines?

Originally Posted by Inzil

You know, there's a way to avoid tan lines you could try. That is, as long as there's a couple hundred miles between us.

:--D

I've got a vaguely uneasy feeling about Lottie, but I think it might have more to do with the aforementioned song which my ipod has deemed appropriate to play several times during the last few days. However, as I believe I said yesterday, I don't think her reaction to her early Gal comment is very incriminating. I would've been baffled too if I had been basically caught quoting what someone else had said.

Originally Posted by Inzil

It's worth noting again how quickly Nate/Pom (did we ever decide on which nick was the favorite?) has gotten the hang of this. Could be a sign of a sharp, natural player, but a more sinister reason has to be at least considered.

She's a Finn. Nuff said?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

*goes to airport to fly to everyone's house just to tell them to start posting*

You here soon? We've some leftover food in the fridge!

I'd actually also like to hear more from sally and Bom. I get irritated when people don't post, and want them dead just for that reason, and they may turn out to be gifteds and then I'm embarrassed. Anyway it's 3-8 at the moment, and if we lynch two more innocents we're pretty much screwed. It's hard when you can afford neither to keep submarines around nor lynch them.
And if the submarines are easy targets for the wolves, so are the people who want to lynch them!

Originally Posted by Boro

Anyway, he seems genuinely not used to this many submarines and fluff posters.

There has always been submarines. Always.

It's funny that now that people are starting to suspect Inzil, I find myself wanting to stand up to his defence. For no other reason than that he's being suspected, and I'm not particularly suspicious of him. My brain keeps finding new ways to surprise me.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Nogrod was chosen to be killed for some reason - why not make use of that information?

I second Bom - what information? I think everything that could've been said about him was already said, and I don't hold against Inzil his reluctance to go through it again.

Originally Posted by Boro

But don't confuse quiet behavior with blatant unhelpfulness. You know as well as I do, BNs need to give off an impression of being contributive and helping.

And yet quiet wolves slip under everybody's radar and win the game every now and then without even appearing very helpful. It might be their style, but it's my - and several others' - style to not ignore them and keep the threat of being lynched above their heads if they remain non-vocal. One of my principles in WW is that if you don't post, I'm entitled to vote for you without further explanation if the mood strikes me. And in a small game, I'd consider two days' quiet behaviour to be blatantly unhelpful, but maybe that's just me.

Originally Posted by Boro

Not-trusting me is probably the smartest thing she's ever done.

Changing in-game personas now, are we? Try to get my head chopped off, and I'll go back and take you for a certain wolf hunter, one-handed.

Originally Posted by Boro

Although our history is a bit different, since her first wolvish game...against the counsels of her pack-mate Mith, I conned her into attacking me. Our WW-relationship is totally built on distrust...it's a lovely thing.

Don't take all the credit for yourself - I was following a careful plan which, unfortunately, turned out to be built on a wrong assumption! Attacking you was a mistake, but one that had very little to do with your endearing show of advertising how well you cook, if you see what I mean.

Originally Posted by Boro

But you also know, by now, that I will ruthlessly go after packmates if it will make me look better and more trusty to the village...therefor mates are silly if they trust me.

Ah so this is why you've been going after me all this time!

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

Rune. Seems sensible enough and cannot really be blamed of opportunism - he tries to remain objective even though he doesn't really need to.

That's exactly my scruple with him, though! He's sensible, yes, but the trying to remain objective is opportunism of sorts, isn't it? Leaving all doors open, waiting to see which looks the most promising?

Anyway, I wouldn't mind voting Lottie, actually. Don't want to vote Gal, she doesn't look like a wolf to me. Or I might take Rune's lead and go for someone not contributing.


EDIT: x-ed with Lottie

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lottie

It wasn't so much that I was alarmed that Agan had made the same point, but that my first line was practically identical to hers ("Jumpy, are we?" and "Jumpy much?"). I found it a bit alarming that I could post something so similar to what she'd said and not have realized it - plus I didn't want to follow someone else's points so exactly and unconciously when I can't say for absolute certainty that she isn't trying to mislead me.

Fair enough, though I still find the "now I'm wondering if my thinking G55 suspicious was even my idea in the first place" part rather sketchy.


EDIT: x-ed with Galagangal

[Nogrod]

I haven't read all and it seems I have no time to do so (ten minutes left) so based on what I've read thus far I'm thinking of declining from voting toDay - a second time in my life of these games, I think.

I'm very sorry but it feels like really bad to vote someone without reading the thread first, on D1 with no ideas from previous Days.

[Nogrod]

But on the top discussion of toDay (what I read of it), I'm inclined to think both Agan & Boro innocent. Boro the more so - not so much because of his explanation the length of which actully is the only thing making me wonder, but because of his open offer to jump himself into the middle of discussion with his stuff on Agan. It just looks like very bad policy from a BN but reasonable spirit from an ordo.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I don't recall ever seeing G55 mention the whole "dismissal" thing, even though I mentioned it twice. It may have gotten lost in the shuffle, but even so...

++G55

or

++G55

if Pitchmod prefers the red persuasion.

[Loslote]

Since I dislike last-minute vote scrambles (especially after last game!):

++G55

EDIT: xed with Shasta

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Bom Tombadillo

[Galadriel55]

It seems this particular Ranger is a popular choice. Not that it would do you any good to lynch me, as you're like to find out if you do.

Edit: xed since Shasta

[A Little Green]

Nah. Don't want to leave it 'til the last minute flurry..

++ Lottie

It isn't much, but it's the best lead I have.


EDIT: x-ed with Lottie, Runne and Agan

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

if Pitchmod prefers the red persuasion.

He does indeed, in every possible sense of the word. Kidding aside, I think I said so in the Admin thread - makes it easier to count votes for my old short-sighted eyes.

EDIT: Rune, highlight, please.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It seems this particular Ranger is a popular choice. Not that it would do you any good to lynch me, as you're like to find out if you do.

Gal, what are you?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

He does indeed, in every possible sense of the word. Kidding aside, I think I said so in the Admin thread - makes it easier to count votes for my old short-sighted eyes.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Gal, what are you?

Galadriel55, Galadriel, Gal, Gal55, Galadriwolf, Galwolfriel, Wolf55, Nilpadriel, Galwurstiel, the lad lass, you there with a 55, probably something else as well...

[Pitchwife]

DL. Silentium.

[Bom Tombadillo]

*sigh* I'm a bit lost now and without enough time to do a thorough reread, but . . .

++Rune Son of Bjarne

I dunno. He might be genuine, but attacking me specifically for lack of content just seems odd to me.

EDIT: X'd with everybody since G55's last post.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

++Rune Son of Bjarne

I dunno. He might be genuine, but attacking me specifically for lack of content just seems odd to me.

Yeah, because that's not suspicious....


EDIT: x'd since the post I quoted

[satansaloser2005]

Bom or Galadriel. Opinions?


EDIT: x'd with Rune

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

*sigh* I'm a bit lost now and without enough time to do a thorough reread, but . . .

++Rune Son of Bjarne

I dunno. He might be genuine, but attacking me specifically for lack of content just seems odd to me.

EDIT: X'd with everybody since G55's last post.

Not you specifically, at least not only you. I think the same can be said about Sally, the way you did it just annoyed me more.

I do think there is an argument to vote Galadriel, it is just not strong enough to convince me that it would be more beneficial than to get rid of people who does not seem to take the game seriously.

[A Little Green]

Where is everybody?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Sally

Bom or Galadriel. Opinions?

Both probably innocent if you ask me, but Gal contributes more, so I'd say Bom.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Where is everybody?

Here.

[Galadriel55]

++Bom

I wanna live, people. You wanna live too.

Edit: xed since my last