The Ring: If Galadriel or Gandalf had taken it?

[Lalwendë]

I agree that Saruman had definitely tried his hand at ring making. One of the (many) things that intrigues me about him is what powers this ring gave him. And like I've said many times before, I believe he was trying to forge some kind of 'third way' which ultimately failed (and maybe was even doomed to fail).

I often wonder if his impulse to get hold of the Hobbits and hence the One ring was of his own making or due to the influence of Sauron via his use of the palantir. And likewise, how much his crafting of his ring was influenced by Sauron.

Are these the words of someone wholly under the influence of Sauron or the words of someone who had a genuine idea to do things another way, and who had that notion exploited by Sauron:

'He drew himself up then and began to declaim, as if he were making a speech long rehearsed. "The Elder Days are gone. The Middle Days are passing. The Younger Days are beginning. The time of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule. But we must have power, power to order all things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see.

'"And listen, Gandalf, my old friend and helper!" he said, coming near and speaking now in a softer voice. "I said we, for we it may be, if you will join with me. A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means."

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Are these the words of someone wholly under the influence of Sauron or the words of someone who had a genuine idea to do things another way, and who had that notion exploited by Sauron:

This has been a bit of an "off the wall" theory I've been thinking on for a while, so feel free to shoot it down hard, because it may be a reach. It just comes because I think Saruman is one of the most interesting villains written in literature.

I've been thinking based on what we know of Saruman's background (coming from Aule), who he is a person (jealous of Gandalf's ring, some parts politician, some part scientist, and some part mime) he wants the One Ring, not to wield is as say Galadriel or Gandalf would. Rather, he wants the Ring to understand its making, and uncover the power of its making in order to make a ring of his own.

Taking that next step to narfforc's post. Being a maia of Aule it's not surpise in UT - The Istari Saruman is said to have "great skill he had in works of hand." I also think there is a pride and love that the craftsman has for objects of their own making. So, Saruman not only had great skill at crafting, but I don't think it would be a stretch to say he would want something crafted by his own hand. There would be an added sense of pride in the skill, beauty, a/or power in one's own crafting, like with Feanor's silmarils.

Ok, now moving to all the parts of Saruman's personality. We know when he discovered Gandalf had an elven ring of power he was jealous:

And the Grey Messenger took the the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this give, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest~The Istari

This may be looking like slow baby steps, but it's basically my exact train of thought and establishing Saruman wants a ring of power. And he winds up wanting the One Ring. But here's where if you ask "why?" I think you can come up with some different possibilities. For a long time I went on assuming the answer to "why" would be the same as Galadriel or Gandalf. Saruman wants the Ring to control it, wield it, and style himself as the new Lord of the Rings. Essentially, he wants to replace Sauron and thinks possessing and mastering the One Ring is his path to doing it. But this is where Saruman gets so complicated and fascinating as a character, because he's not Sauron and he's not Gandalf.

Taking the other aspects of Saruman's personality. He's very much a scientist, as we see with breaking the white light:

"In which case it is no longer white...and he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom"~The Council of Elrond

In Gandalf's opinion, what Saruman has done is treacherous. Whether someone agrees with Gandalf or not, isn't really the purpose, but it's reveals a part of Saruman's character. He is one who will take something, and break it, to try to find out what it is, and I think in trying to understand it's making, Saruman believes he can gain power over it. It's much different from seeking the Ring to wield it. With Saruman, it becomes seeking the One Ring to study it, unlock any hidden keys to its making and therefor, possibly trying to craft a ring that would be his own making that would be able to challenge Sauron's ring.

Here's where it might be argued that surely Saruman, as well studied into Ring-lore as he was, would understand that such an endeavor is beyond his powers. I disagree, because we have to consider the rest of Saruman's personality. He reaches a point where he is so prideful he's deluded and bewildered himself. He's blinded by his pride, he can't see or comprehend his failure anymore. When Isildur tried to bend the Ring to his will, in the UT, Isildur remarks his "pride has fallen." He realized the limitations of his own power, couldn't subjugate the Ring to his will, and thus decides it needs to go to the "Keepers of the three."

Saruman, being innately more powerful than Isildur, may very well be able to succeed where Isildur couldn't. However, even if Saruman were to fail, as Isildur did, I don't think Saruman would even comprehend that he failed. Isildur's pride fell. Saruman's pride blinded him to the point where he was fooling himself and the capability of his powers. Saruman is incapable of understanding the limitations of his powers. And therefor I believe if he wanted the One Ring to "break it" (as he did with the white light) and uncover crafting his own Ring of Power, he wouldn't understand the fruitlessness of his pursuit.

Saruman the mime. Basically, Saruman copies everything from Sauron, but it just winds up being a cheap knock off. The best way I can explain it is, if Sauron drank whole milk Saruman would drink skim. He wants to emulate Sauron in every way, but it winds up being a lesser imitation. The tower, the new breed of Uruks, the white hand, the "Ring-maker" title (which is ironically a title Gandalf gives to Sauron earlier in the books), all of Saruman's efforts to imitate Sauron. So, my question is, how can Saruman be a mime if his desire is to wield Sauron's Ring? Saruman would need a Ring of Power, crafted by his hands, and in that way can he only be the perfect copy of Sauron.

Finally, going back now to one of Lal's points:

Are these the words of someone wholly under the influence of Sauron or the words of someone who had a genuine idea to do things another way, and who had that notion exploited by Sauron

Saruman's mind is extremely muddled. I think of it as there is what Saruman says and how he wants others to perceive him, and then there is what Saruman actually does. And they are different. Saruman, essentially says one thing, but in the end he is of the same mind as Sauron.

Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him.~HOME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Sauron was able to understand Saruman far better than he could understand Gandalf, because Saruman was so similar. And in the end, Saruman fell in a way different from Denethor's fall:

Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable~The Palantiri

"desire his victory, or no longer opposed it"...there's some interesting and kind of unhelpful wording. However, this is where Saruman the politician comes in. Because, as Lal says, Saruman's speeches don't really sound like one who is wholly under the influence of Sauron, yet Saruman becomes such a close imitation, Sauron can easily figure him out.

I think what it is, Saruman has tried to put on so many different faces and charades that he's confused not only everyone else, but himself. He may truly believe what he says and the end results are just completely different. Or he is the politician who has tried to play to so many different parties (Gandalf, Sauron, the Elves, Rohan, Gondor..etc) that he's essentially beent tangled in his own web of deceit. He's befudddled himself to the point where he himself doesn't understand what he's saying, nor who he is as a person. This is a point Tom Shippey observes with all of Saruman's abstract speeches on "the Power" and "the ultimate purpose," and "breaking the white light."

Saruman indeed talks exactly like too many politicians. It is impossible towork out exactly what he means because of the abstract nature of his speech; in the end it is doubtful whether he understands himself.~Author of the Century; Mapping out a Plot

He may indeed believe what he's spouting, but he's speaking so abstractly it confuses the audience and probably confuses himself. And while he certainly doesn't sound like one who is of like mind to Sauron, in the end that's basically who he becomes.

[Galadriel55]

Boro, I can't rep you again yet, but this post sure deserves one (or two or three...). It's something very interesting that I haven't heard or thought of before - Saruman the Scientist and Ring-Unmaker. And I think ths is exactly how it began.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Boro, I can't rep you again yet, but this post sure deserves one (or two or three...). It's something very interesting that I haven't heard or thought of before - Saruman the Scientist and Ring-Unmaker. And I think ths is exactly how it began.

A well-done post indeed.

I wonder though, if Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf isn't underestimated as a factor in the former's Ring-lust.

Consider that the envy apparently had its origins in Valinor. At the barely outlined council of the Valar in which they decided who their emissaries contesting Sauron would be, it was said that Manwë ordered Gandalf to go as the "third" (the first two being Curumo (Saruman) and Alatar), though he was afraid.

But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

UT The Istari

So the seed was there: Saruman had that gnawing him before he ever set foot at the Grey Havens.

In the UT section The Hunt For the Ring, Saruman's motives for emulating Gandalf's interest in the Shire are ascribed to that same jealousy.

Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.

Envy is certainly a trait that would lead one to a desire for power beyond one's native means, and Saruman's inner knowledge that Gandalf was both more favoured and more powerful would have been a tremendous boost to that.

[Lalwendë]

That's excellent Boro!

I completely agree that Saruman is one of the most fascinating villains in literature. He reminds me of a few others, namely Faust, Satan in Paradise Lost and The Master in Doctor Who (not literature, I know ). I'm sure there are a few more. But out of all of them, Saruman interests me most. He's an enticing figure, and more intelligent than almost any one else. He is not, however, more wise.

I think that at some point his mindset changed and it became difficult to discern which were his own motives and which had been planted there by Sauron. He was a great scientist and I do believe that he began studying Ring Lore with intentions of gaining a deep understanding, probably with the intention of doing good, but he perhaps went too deep into this and at that point his own surety in his intelligence and skill overcame his purpose in Middle-earth and he began to think that perhaps he could find a way to best Sauron by beating him at his own game.

The one factor which shows that he had gone too far is when he 'breaks the light'. Light is holy in Middle-earth, and Saruman was not content to simply accept Light as such, but sought to see how it worked and how he could improve upon it and use it.

Originally Posted by Boro

Saruman is incapable of understanding the limitations of his powers. And therefor I believe if he wanted the One Ring to "break it" (as he did with the white light) and uncover crafting his own Ring of Power, he wouldn't understand the fruitlessness of his pursuit.

This is a really good point! I've never really thought that maybe Saruman wanted the One Ring so he could break it and understand how it was made/what it did, but it makes perfect sense, given his history. Do you think it would be fruitless because he would be incapable of achieving that or because you think Sauron would instantly pounce on it?

[Andsigil]

Didn't Galadriel, herself, describe what would happen if she took the ring?

From The Fellowship of the Ring, page 381:

"And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountains! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"

The last line, to me, is particularly chilling. I can think of no modern earthly equivalent to such a ruler: one who sits so far above his or subjects, radiating some kind of super-terrestrial ambience; a figure that men love out of slavish, awestruck devotion; one whose blessing men crave instead of being pleased by it while they cringe and grovel in terror from his or her displeasure.

Perhaps someone like Kim Jong Il was such a figure for the North Koreans. He certainly had a lot of contrived mysticism surrounding his birth, rule, and accomplishments which they seemed to have thought was true. Looking at the recent news footage of the recent hysterical lunacy surrounding his death, I get the impression of slavish devotion, as well.

[Lalwendë]

I know. It's chilling. And I can't think of anyone in the modern or even recent world who inspired such devotion.

But rather than Kim Jong Il, who I think probably inspired much suppressed hatred too in his subjects (and those pictures of dramatic grief were likely carefully released to show the rest of the world just how 'loved' he was - or how they want us to think he was loved), I always take this vision of an all-powerful Galadriel to be something approaching a religious figure.

Galadriel is the Lady of Light, and Light is holy in Tolkien's creation. She also bears Nenya which has a 'white' stone, and White is also presented as a representation of divinity. She is represented by two symbols of divinity in Arda. As an aside, the Mirror of Galadriel appears to have stars suspended in the water - Light held in water, note that Nenya is the Ring of Water.

Sam climbed up on the foot of the pedestal and leaned over the basin. The water looked hard and dark. Stars were reflected in it.
'There's only stars, as I thought,' he said. Then he gave a low gasp, for the stars went out.

And Nenya is powerful. I think it's clear that it somehow possesses some of the Light:

She lifted up her white arms, and spread out her hands towards the East in a gesture of rejection and denial. Earendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the Elves, shone clear above. So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.

'Yes,' she said, divining his thought, 'it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lorien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.

Given all this, I can quite easily see how, if she took the One Ring, she would be "beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night" and inspiring the sort of slavish devotion that no mere political leader could hope for and would only ever be given to a religious figurehead. A terrible and ultimately unkindly religious figurehead.

Of course, the question about Galadriel is that a 'cloud' still hangs over her for her part in the Noldorian rebellion, and there's debate over whether she is still one of those under the ban from Valinor because Tolkien was not perfectly clear. I think she is. This seems to be her 'test':

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light Faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.
'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'

That, given that in her youth Galadriel joined the Noldorian flight from Valinor because she sought power that she could not have there, showed how Galadriel was incredibly strong and had grown incredibly wise too. She had enjoyed long years of power in Middle-earth, had been, you could argue, the most powerful female figure in the whole of Arda, and now she had grown mature enough to know to reject further power.

I think that had she taken the One Ring, she could have become even more terrible than we could imagine. I don't doubt for a minute she could have bested Sauron, but at an awful cost. And just to add to all of this, she has placed an incredible faith in Frodo at this point, to know that she has accepted her power will diminish from that point, but not knowing (or does she?) that the One Ring will be destroyed.