Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boro

The tricky part is, Pride can lead you to greatness, and reaching accomplishments that no one thought possible. With that said, the same pride is a slippery slope to one's own downfall. I think in the case with Feanor and Turin, is while their pride was their reason for achieving Greatness, their pride leads to the inevitable Fall.

Agreed on all counts.

So, when talking about the context of Middle-earth, it doesn't matter whether one agrees with Tolkien's interpretation of ofermod. What matters is Tolkien's opinion on it and how it's present in his story. Ofermod is thus the "bad pride," it is the "excessive pride," which can be seen in a wide range of Tolkien's characters.

Ok, I see it now. I see your point.

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits.

Ah, I think I see the source of our disagreement about Morwen. You see the bad side of her, but say that she is redeemed in your eyes because of her good qalities. I, on the other hand, do not condemn her because of these traits, and therefore she has nothing to be redeemed from in my eyes.

Although, as you said, Tolkien's opinion on ofermod is not too positive, Morwen is a character loved and respected, despite her seemingly excessive pride (not only by me ). The whole Narn is written with the idea that Hurin's family brought ruin to all around them and brought about the Fall of three Elven kingdoms, but nonetheless are revered.

This is what makes me laugh though at the critics who will say Tolkien only wrote "completely bad or completely good" characters. I mean there are a few characters who, whether intended or not, come off that way. But, for the most part, I think there are more Denethors and Morwens than there are Elronds and Gandalfs.

I don't think even Gandalf and Elrond are really completely good. And Morgoth is not completely bad. They might be very very very light- or dark-grey, but not white or black. (Gndalf the White, haha...). I remember saying this on a different thread but I can't remember which; someone cited there Tolkien's letter in which he specifically said that Melkor is not purely evil.

Originally Posted by Inzil

No, the pregnancy was not her fault. The text says though, that she delayed her decision on what to do in the event Morgoth won the battle, even though Húrin had specifically told her not to wait, but to leave as soon as she heard of ill news. She did not do so. And the desire to avoid being an "alms-guest" of Thingol is cited as one of the things foremost on her mind.

I do believe it also said that she was "cheated by false hope", and believed that Hurin will soon return to Dor-lomin.

I never meant to say that Morwen, or Túrin for that matter, were all bad. My point on both is that whatever mischief Morgoth had in mind for them was exacerbated by their personality flaws: in both cases pride was the main factor. If they'd been able to curb that, the effects of the curse would likely have been lessened.

But they weren't, and it wasn't. And what's there to do about it, except for try to understand why they weren't?

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I do believe it also said that she was "cheated by false hope", and believed that Hurin will soon return to Dor-lomin.

This is correct and, I think, an important point. It's easy to ascribe all the mistakes made by Morwen and Turin to the 'negative' trait of pride, and indeed pride is a critical component in their tragedy, but in my view, the 'positive' traits of hope, pity, and compassion play just as large a role. That duality is nicely exemplified by Morwen's hesitation after the Nirnaeth, the cause for which the narrator seems to ascribe more or less equally to her hope that Hurin will return and her unwillingness to accept charity from Thingol.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Hope this isn't too off topic, but...

I have to say that, to me, Turin is perhaps (along with a
few of the sons of Feanor) the least likable of major characters
in the Silmarillion. perhaps one contributing reason is the treatment
in the Narn of free will. In Reader's Guide to the Silmarillion (1980)

Paul Kocher discusses (somewhat ambiguously) this free will problem.

In reflecting upon this grim tragedy of incest and suicide the
reader is apt to ask sooner or later wheather it is consistent with the
doctrine underlying the whole of The Silmarillion, that Elves and
Men have been created with wills free to choose between right and wrong.
This is to ask whether Morgoth's curse upon Hurin and his children
succeeeded, and this in turn is to ask whether Morgoth or Iluvatar by his
Providence governed the course of their lives...
Before and after the trances, however, free choices are made by Turin which
develop his situation in a direction leading toward his suicide.

He seems to be arguing both for the efficacy of Morgoth's curse AND
free will.

[Aiwendil]

A few people were wondering earlier about differences between the text in UT and that in The Children of Hurin. I had forgotten until just today that not long after the latter's release, someone writing under the name 'Hyalma' put together a comprehensive list of the divergences, which is available as a .doc file here.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

A few people were wondering earlier about differences between the text in UT and that in The Children of Hurin. I had forgotten until just today that not long after the latter's release, someone writing under the name 'Hyalma' put together a comprehensive list of the divergences, which is available as a .doc file here.

That must have taken a long time! I'll be sure to check it out in full when have some more free time. Thanks for the link, Aiwendil!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for that link, Aiwendil! That is a valuable resource.

Let's continue with the next sections of the chapter: Túrin among the Outlaws, Of Mîm the Dwarf, The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin, and The Coming of Túrin into Brethil. I'll wait to see how intensive the discussion is before deciding whether to spend one or two weeks on this continuation.

The first thing that I noticed was the difference between Tuor and Túrin in their times as an outlaw. Tuor was alone and used his skirmishes to fight against evil; Túrin had to compromise, since he joined with evil characters - though he tried to do good, he was not always able to do so.

As related here, Túrin's dealings with the Dwarves are one aspect I see as positive. He can feel for them and manages to curb his pride.

A large section of the story is missing from this account, which makes it an unfinished tale, I guess, though it has an ending.

Túrin's return to his old home proves more negative for the people there - his attempt to free them goes awry. The last section closes with his choice of a new name - but calling himself "Master of Doom" does not make it so...

[Galadriel55]

I'm jumping a bit in chronology, but I've been waiting to make this point for almost two weeks.

When Turin is with the Outlaws, in Nargothrond, and in Brethil, he takes on "fake" names. But in the first two he is still called "Turin" in the narration. However, after he asks the Men of Brethil to forget his name and call him "Turambar" instead, the narration also switches the name! When the narration channels someone's thoughts from outside (Morwen, Nienor, Mablung, etc) he is referred to as Turin, but when it talks about him specifically, he is called Turambar, until, I believe, the last chapters when all is revealed. It is as if he commanded Tolkien himself to forget his real name!

Evidently, the third "name/identity change" was the most significant. And the most "complete". And the name that he takes is the least connected to his past ("Master of Doom" says little, at least compared to "Neithan" and "Agarwaen").

*Note: the Nargothrond material is skipped here; there is some in the appendix, but I'm basing my statements above mostly on COH.

Originally Posted by Esty

As related here, Túrin's dealings with the Dwarves are one aspect I see as positive. He can feel for them and manages to curb his pride.

Strangely enough, he is called both an Elf-warrior and a Dwarf-lord in just two (iirc) chapters, though he is just a Man. He is certainly a great Man, and has lots of compassion and understanding; he just doesn't always let it come out. He asks Beleg "how can an Elf judge a Man" (or something to that extent), but he himself does not judge his friends - Beleg, Mim, and the Outlaws. He becomes like them, only "judging" (or, I'd rather say "evluating") them on a rare occasion. He is open to them, and allows himself to understand them - and himself.

He's a really extraordinary person, with many hidden qualities that he subconciously suppresses.