Silmarillion - Chapter 23 - Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

[Aiwendil]

Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to expand a bit on Estelyn's excellent point:

I can't help but compare the fate of Tuor with that of Túrin - it would seem that Tuor is blessed whereas Túrin was cursed.

Indeed, the stories of Turin and of Tuor mirror each other in many ways, and I think each story provides some insight into the other.

To begin with, Turin and Tuor are of course cousins, each the son of a heroic warrior who fought in the Nirnaeth. Each has had a destiny of some kind prescribed for him by a Vala - by Morgoth in Turin's case and by Ulmo in Tuor's (the interesting questions about fate vs. free will that arise in Turin's saga are applicable also to Tuor's, though less often discussed). Each is, as a child, delivered by his mother into the care of a Grey Elf (Thingol and Annael, respectively). Each wishes to take up arms against the forces of Morgoth; but while Thingol allows Turin to do this, Annael forbids Tuor. Like Turin, Tuor then spends some time as an outlaw. Turin befriends Gwindor, who leads him to the hidden Noldorin kingdom of Nargothrond; likewise, Tuor meets Voronwe who leads him to the hidden kingdom of Gondolin. Notice also that Gwindor meets Turin soon after escaping from Angband, the realm of Morgoth; likewise Voronwe meets Tuor after having been lost for years at sea - in other words, in the realm of Ulmo.

Each of the cousins then becomes a respected leader and counselor to the king in his respective Elvish city. In fact, there is an additional parallel here that did not survive into the published Silmarillion. Turin, of course, counsels Orodreth to abandon his secrecy and go openly to war against Morgoth. In the pre-LotR versions of the story, Tuor (at the command of Ulmo) similarly urges Turgon to go forth to war. Each is opposed in their counsel by another important figure in the city (Gwindor and Maeglin, respectively), who also happens to be a rival of sorts for the affections of the king's daughter. And of course, each of the hidden kingdoms is eventually attacked and destroyed.

One could argue that throughout the story, Tuor makes the right decisions where Turin made the wrong ones. But then, as Esty points out, Tuor was blessed whereas Turin was cursed; after all, neither of them escaped his fate - though, of course, Tuor's fate was happy whereas Turin's was not.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

To begin with, Turin and Tuor are of course cousins, each the son of a heroic warrior who fought in the Nirnaeth. Each has had a destiny of some kind prescribed for him by a Vala - by Morgoth in Turin's case and by Ulmo in Tuor's (the interesting questions about fate vs. free will that arise in Turin's saga are applicable also to Tuor's, though less often discussed).

I think it is noteworthy that Túrin did have some intervention by the same Vala who "blessed" Tuor.

Ulmo had sent emissaries to Nargothrond, who had given express warnings from him against the manner in which, ordered by Túrin, the Elves there were conducting themselves. Túrin refused to listen, and I see no way in which Morgoth could have prevented him from doing so.

Tuor, on the other hand, sees himself as but a small player in the greater Play. He accepts Ulmo's errand with that in view. One would have to wonder what Túrin might have said in a similar circumstance, confronted by the Lord of Waters, and asked to give up any private ambitions he might have had and go do Ulmo's bidding. Something to the effect of "What have the Valar ever done to help me or me kin? No thanks," maybe.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

One could argue that throughout the story, Tuor makes the right decisions where Turin made the wrong ones. But then, as Esty points out, Tuor was blessed whereas Turin was cursed; after all, neither of them escaped his fate - though, of course, Tuor's fate was happy whereas Turin's was not.

And the "fate" of both was not etched in stone. Just as Túrin could have at least lessened the impact of the curse by his choices, I feel certain Tuor was also at liberty to escape his "fate". He could have refused Ulmo's errand, "fate" would have found another means of being accomplished, and Tuor's enduring fame would consequently probably not have been present.

[Galadriel55]

The world will come to an end before me and Inzil will stop arguing on this topic, it seems.

Tuor, on the other hand, sees himself as but a small player in the greater Play. He accepts Ulmo's errand with that in view. One would have to wonder what Túrin might have said in a similar circumstance, confronted by the Lord of Waters, and asked to give up any private ambitions he might have had and go do Ulmo's bidding. Something to the effect of "What have the Valar ever done to help me or me kin? No thanks," maybe.

One could equally say that Tuor is a brainless Yes-man, accepting everything that came his way until Maeglin attempted to sieze Idril and Earendil. Ulmo told him to find a city that wasn't found by anybody in hundreds of years, and Tuor says "sure thing! Just cause you're a Vala and can't make mistakes, I'll go I don't know where!" He's darn lucky "fate" brought Voronwe to that place at that time. Then, when Turgon refuses to listen, "sure thing, Turgon, don't listen to Ulmo, he isn't aware of the current situation here inland! You know better!"

You know this isn't the way it was, I know it isn't.

Though his tale is, as was said, a happy one, you could also say that he was partially responsible for the Fall of Gondolin. He also did not heed Ulmo to the full extent. He didn't see to it that the city be abandoned in time. Was it his fault that Turgon was stubborn? No, but he certainly could have nagged him onto it, having a very high position. If Turin was able to bring about a destruction of a kingdom by revealing it, it was in Tuor's hands to prevent a destruction by revealing his respective kingdom. Why was Turin able to do it, and Tuor wasn't? Is it because he didn't have the guts, or perhaps the initiative, or the desire to make things happen in thay Play?

Again, it comes down to this. It'm exaggerating somewhat, but the fact that Turin is an active "player" and Tuor - a passive one, doesn't make one better than the other, or one "right" and the other "wrong".

In modern terms we could call Tuor religious and Turin an atheist. Or, perhaps, Tuor - a believer, and Turin - a realist. Can we fault him for being realistic? You have to look at things from his point of view, not only from up above at the reader's perspective.

Yes, I like Turin better as a character than Tuor. But I'm not putting one as an ideal example in front of the other.

And saying that, I think that Tuor is the closest Tolkien ever came to writing a Mary Sue, or in this case Gary Stu, though that is still very far.

One thing we could say as a definite thing about their opposite fates and personalities is that Tuor was humble and Turin was proud. That is probably what influenced their choices the most. But yet again, this does not make Tuor better than Turi in my eyes. He sure has humility, so much of it that he hardly has any backbone. Turin has too much backbone. They need each other for contrast and compromise. Finis.

~~~

Originally Posted by Esty

Betrayal is the other cause of Gondolin's downfall - Maeglin's jealousy drives him to divulge the city's location to Morgoth. He's an interesting character - what do you think of him and the role he played?

I think he's a true kinsman of Feanor, though distant. He's one of those many characters that are "good", and then suddenly "bad", and most of the time on a "third side". This adds dimention to the world, and makes it more realistic.

Out of all the FA traitors, I think he's the dirtiest and cheapest one. He's comparable with Gorlim, also driven to treachery by love. Gorlim's motivation was longing and dragged-out waiting for some sign, and not knowing what has happened to Eilinel, whereas Maeglin's was drawn-out lust.

From the very beginning he is a bit of a treacherous person. He has no respect for Eol his father, and is indifferent when he is thrown off the cliff. While Eol isn't "right", I still expected some basic son-to-father respect. Maeglin was born with only his personal gain in mind.

In this chapter he once again shows that he only lusts after Idril and is jealous of Tuor, with no care for the other Elves of Gondolin.

[VarTalman]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it is noteworthy that Túrin did have some intervention by the same Vala who "blessed" Tuor.

Ulmo had sent emissaries to Nargothrond, who had given express warnings from him against the manner in which, ordered by Túrin, the Elves there were conducting themselves. Túrin refused to listen, and I see no way in which Morgoth could have prevented him from doing so.

Tuor, on the other hand, sees himself as but a small player in the greater Play. He accepts Ulmo's errand with that in view. One would have to wonder what Túrin might have said in a similar circumstance, confronted by the Lord of Waters, and asked to give up any private ambitions he might have had and go do Ulmo's bidding. Something to the effect of "What have the Valar ever done to help me or me kin? No thanks," maybe.

I say it again... Tuor's assignment closely parallels the journey of Jonah in the Bible.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by VarTalman

I say it again... Tuor's assignment closely parallels the journey of Jonah in the Bible.

Considering how many biblical references there are in Lord of the Rings, especially with Gandalf, I don't find this hard to believe.