Smith of Wootton Major in Middle Earth?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Wow. Maybe I've been gone too long from this forum but that is the first explaination of that line that has ever resonated for me.

Wow.

I'm honoured.

Just expanding on my earlier thoughts: Perhaps in the time of The Sil, Valinor was still too young (or, rather, too youthful?) to really be Faerie. It was ready at the time of LOTR. Just like for us ME is like Faerie, but for many of its inhabitants is wasn't.

Also, since Roverandom was already mentioned, I think it's worth noting that the whale that showed the Rovers "Valinor" was Uin(en). I know it doesn't make sense, as this is cutting the root -nen- in half, but I couldn't help making the association.

[littlemanpoet]

Somehow, it doesn't seem enough for something to be "ready to be Faerie" just because it's aged some. Faerie has its own quiddity, if you will, that strikes me as timeless.

[Bêthberry]

Dimitra Fimi's book entitled Tolkien, Race, and Cultural History offers a very interesting study of how Tolkien's ideas about the fay world changed from his very earliest poems through the First, Second, and Third Ages, leading ultimately to SWM. I can't recommend it highly enough.

But perhaps this passage might be of interest here. It comes from Tolkien's public lecture Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, on the medieval poem of the same name. He is discussing Gawain's acceptance of the the Lady's girdle and the effects of Gawain's confession, before Gawain goes off to face his fate with the Green Knight. This is about an explicitly Christian work, which Tolkien's is not, and so it could refer just to the Gawain poem.

Originally Posted by Tolkien

And so, while Gawain does not accept the Girdle solely out of courtesy, and is tempted by the hope of magic aid, and when arming does not forget it, but puts it on for gode of hymseluen and to sauen hymself, this motive is minimised, and Gawain is not represented as relying on it at all when coming to the desperate point--for it, no less than the horrible Green Knight, and his faierie, and all faierie, is ultimately under God. A reflexion which makes the magic Girdle seem rather feeble, as no doubt the poet intended that it should.

The lecture was delivered in 1953.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Somehow, it doesn't seem enough for something to be "ready to be Faerie" just because it's aged some. Faerie has its own quiddity, if you will, that strikes me as timeless.

It's not that much about aging as about making it remote. As Valinor grew older, it happened to distance itself from ME. When ME got "got old", it became our faerie. When it's "young", it's too mundane, because it's too close to the present.

[littlemanpoet]

Not sure what to make of Tolkien's comments about Sir Gawain in context of SoWM. What do YOU make of it, Bethberry?

Galadriel, I get you. I do understand how the remoteness of time affects. I still see a difference between mere remoteness and that thing about Faery that makes it Faery. Consider: we don't consider ancient Egypt to be Faerie. However, we do consider ancient Ireland and ancient Britain to be full of Faery. What is it about the latter that separates them from Egypt and other non-Faery-ish place-times, that makes them feel like Faery?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Consider: we don't consider ancient Egypt to be Faerie. However, we do consider ancient Ireland and ancient Britain to be full of Faery. What is it about the latter that separates them from Egypt and other non-Faery-ish place-times, that makes them feel like Faery?

Ancient Egypt has too much civilization.

Really, I don't know. I guess it's that thing that you said that makes Faerie a Faerie.

[littlemanpoet]

Ancient Egypt has too much civilization.

Well, yeah. Also, it seems kinda hard to me to have Faery in the desert. It needs lush greenery and growing things of a northern nature. And mist. Mist is good. And things that don't talk, or even think, in our mundane world, they need to both think and talk, and maybe even walk and dance. It needs richness, an inherent power. Reminds me of how Elves in Middle Earth, when asked about "magic", always answer in a somewhat confused fashion .... "I am not sure what you mean by magic, but if you wish to talk about our art...." Yeah. That stuff.

[Puddleglum]

As I recall, Tolkien described Faery as being the realm where the creatures of faery (eg, elves, dragons, dwarves, leprechans, paladins, talking trees, etc, etc) live and exist in their natural place. {I apologize in advance for the crudity of my recollection, Tolkien put it far batter than I just did}. Faery stories, then, were stories about interactions between normal, mundane "people" and denizens of "The Perilous Realm".

• The Middle East, with its Genies may be on the borders of Faery - for all that it is mostly desert.
• Greece, with its Centaurs, Minotaurs, Fauns, Satyrs, Cyclops, Sirens, etc seems VERY "Faery" to me.
• UK (especially Ireland) with its fairies, leprechans, and so forth, is (for one grown up in Northern European traditions) quintissential "Faery".

But Egypt - I don't think it's so much the climate as it is I am not familiar with much of any "faery" elements in Egyption history or mythos. That coul be because there aren't any, or because I am just ignorant enough of Egyption mythos that I don't know they are there.

Either way, a place isn't going to "feel" faery, unless one is consciously aware of the denizens of faery residing in the place - or, at least, visiting it from time to time in the stories of the place.

[Bêthberry]

Sorry for the tardy response, elempi. I didn't see this until now.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Not sure what to make of Tolkien's comments about Sir Gawain in context of SoWM. What do YOU make of it, Bethberry?

I can only relate it specifically to Tolkien's thoughts on the universe of the Gawain poem, because he has clearly said that religion is absent from SWM, although it is possible to read SWM as a story about the falling away of religion and religious ritual from the true state, where song and dance and beauty and faerie were highly respected, unlike the attitude represented by Nokes. Faerie, as I understand it in Tolkien, is the realm not where Men meet elves, but where Men have aventures that enchant them. I don't say supernatural either, because Tolkien in OFS clearly explains that it is Men who are supernatural, that is, outside of nature.

Originally Posted by Gal55

All this talk about death reminds me of a curious little question that came up when I was reading Smith. The Elven Queen seems to be immortal, and has the youth and beauty of the canonical Eldar. But the Elven King lives like a normal man would. In this way, he's more like Gandalf than anyone else from the canon. But he's obviously not a canonical Maia. So, will he die? Or, can he change form, so that he will return his youth? Or, scary thought - maybe Elves in Faerie at that stage were creatures undead? Or having neither death nor (hence) real life?

What makes this more interesting is that, althouh we're not told so, but it seems that he keeps watch over the Star under different guises every generation. So he can be reborn? And/or change shape? The possibilities are endless.

This think this is a legitimate question, Galadriel55.

An answer might relate to the differing natures of time and space in fairy and the ordinary world of men. The Fairy Queen after all can appear in different guise in Faerie--she once appeared to Smith as a young maiden dancing and then later in her full appearance as the Queen. And even when Smith meets the Fairy King in Faerie (on returning from his final venture into Faerie), he doesn't recognise him as Alf Prentice until the King decides to make his identity clear.

As for the King's appearance in Wootton Major, it seems to me the story is "about" the concerns of the Faerie world for the debasement in the mortal realm, so that the Fairy King decides to enter the mortal realm and see what he can do to inspire or reignite a desire for faerie in the town. The story demonstrates Tolkien's idea that the faerie realm acts out of benevolence for the good of mortal men because ultimately that is in the best interestes of the fairies too.

Given that Smith himself observes that Tim, Nokes' grandson, will have different adventures from those he had, it is an open question about specifics. Will the mortal men of Wootton Major learn to appreciate Faerie more--or more of them than just those given the Star--or will a second appearance by the King be needed? Certainly Smith's family are receptive to Faerie even if they cannot venture into it, and that genetic influence has helped Nokes' grandson be more responsive. In that restoration of the Nokes family lies the hope of faerie which the story suggests.

Many critics have seen "bereavement" and death in SWM, particularly in Tolkien's own frustration with his increasing age, and an oblique statement about the loss of his creative powers but I'm not one for a straightforward biographical reading of authors. Much I think depends on how one reads the benediction which the Queen of Faerie gives Smith, where he was both in ownership and bereavement.

Originally Posted by Findegil

I can't see were you get the idea that he had come before of would come again later in other guise. In my oppinion Waller was the first to get the star and it is an open question what happend to it when the grandchild of Nokes has to give the Star back. But when I remember rightly Alf had have an apparentice who became master cook when he left.

Alf's apprentice who takes over as Master Cook is Harper, and the symbolic musical name is significant.

I don't know who you mean by "Waller". The star first came to Rider, Smith's grandfather, I think it was.

[Findegil]

I do not know how I came to call the charachter Waller, it is clearly Rider that I meant. Maybe just bad memory. It is some time since I have read that tale.

What we hear about Harper and the friends that Alf made, suggest some hope for the quest of the Elvenking beside the bearers of the star, in my oppinion.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[littlemanpoet]

Rider

Prentice

Smith

Harper

Tim Nokes

A strange set of names, brought together. Obviously, young Tim has not yet earned his surname, so we have no idea what he would become and thus be named. One wonders. No matter what, one is sure, were one to think on it, that whatever occupation he chooses, he would grace it.

So I am left asking the question, if I have been to the edges of Faerie, and I would like to think to think that I have, allowed to be taken there by Tolkien and Lewis and MacDonald; have I graced my circumstance with a shadow of its riches? I feel and think that I could have done better. I suppose there is still time.

It's strange to look in this "mirror". Have you ever done it? What do you see?