New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Mellon]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Why? JRRT tells us that the Arkenstone was cut and fashioned by the Dwarves, so why should it not be true? Or are we free to disregard anything written in the Hobbit that tells of things that happened long in the past but cannot be sustantiated by a character with first hand knowledge or corroborated by evidence elsewhere in JRRT's writings?

I've never actually posted an online opinion before and I am certainly no expert like many people here seem to be but I'd like to raise an issue I have reading the posts that dismiss the idea of the Arkenstone being a Silmaril simply because of the 'cutting and fashioning' statement. As I understand it the arguments against are these
1) a Silmaril cannot be marked/cut in any way
2) it is not possible/plausible for the Silmaril to have become encrusted with lava/gems
3) the fact that Tolkien actually wrote those words is more important than the fact that the story related in 'The Hobbit' is supposed to be Bilbo's account
4) from statements 1-3 it must be accepted that Tolkein intended to convey the impression that the Arkenstone had been cut by dwarves and therefore could not be a Silmaril

In favour of the for argument I submit the following
1) I think we can all agree that the Silmarillion makes clear that the Silmarils are peerless gems, the most incredible ever seen
2) IMMEDIATELY before (about 8 lines to be precise) the words 'cut and fashioned' appear is this statement 'indeed there could not be two such gems...even in all the world' (emphasis is mine)

I submit that the doubters can't have it both ways, either Tolkien chose each word himself and intended the Arkenstone to be an even greater gem than the Silmarils (being natural, and without peer when the Silmarils are 3) OR the statement about the Heart of the Mountain being 'cut and fashioned' was merely a confused and overwhelmed Hobbit's assumption on being presented with a hoard of dwarf-wrought treasures; just as the statement about the Arkenstone being one of a kind was.

I'm not a student of Tolkien, or of literature. As is probably evident from my post I'm in law, and perhaps someone can counter this but that is my take on the matter, for what it is worth.

[Nerwen]

Welcome to the downs, Mellon!

Unfortunately, I'm not at all clear what your argument is, here– unless it's that "well, Bilbo isn't necessarily a reliable witness". Which may be so, but which is hardly a "case" in itself, and anyway cancels itself out, if you see what I mean.

Or is it that

"If

Arkenstone = marvellous jewel

And

Silmaril = marvellous jewel

Then

Arkenstone = Silmaril"?

–Which is simply re-stating the original case.

And if it's neither of those, then would you mind explaining again?

[Nerwen]

Mellon, I think what's really confusing me is that your "for" argument could just as easily be an "against" argument.

See, if you're going to take the "indeed there could not be two such gems...even in all the world" literally, (as if it were, oh, I don't know, given under oath or something ), then I should say it completely demolishes the Silmaril-Arkenstone case through simple arithmetic.

Wish I'd thought of that one!

[Mellon]

Thanks for the welcome!

My point is this;
the key argument that those who DON'T believe that Arkenstone is a Silmaril seem to be making is that the text of the Hobbit says that it was cut by the dwarves which would not be possible were it in fact a Silmaril.

But in the same paragraph it is described as being without peer in all the world which would, I agree, be inconsistent with it being a Silmaril (since there are three of those) but would also contradict the idea of the Silmarils being the most amazing gems in existence (which is, I think we can agree, explicitly stated in the Silmarillion) as it would suggest that the Arkenstone was MORE RARE being as it were one of a kind.

The argument goes, at least as I understand it, that Tolkien was stating that the Arkenston had been cut, rather than that being Bilbo's opinion. In my view this is implausible as it would also impute that Tolkien intended to suggest that the Arkenstone was rarer than the Silmarils themselves!

But perhaps I just really want them to be one and the same.....it makes the whole adventure more magical somehow!

[Inziladun]

Welcome indeed, Mellon!

Personally, I think it's rather thorny to describe how the Silmaril that Maedhros had dropped in or near Beleriand even got to Erebor. That's a bit like dropping a wedding ring into a geyser at Yellowstone and having it found later in Montreal.

[Galadriel55]

Welcome to the Downs, Mellon!

Originally Posted by Mellon

In my view this is implausible as it would also impute that Tolkien intended to suggest that the Arkenstone was rarer than the Silmarils themselves!

Possibly rarer, as the Arkenstone is one and the Silmarili are three.* However, the Arkenstone is just a jewel found in stone, like any other jewel, except bigger. The Silmarili are unique from all other stones because they are unbreakable, and also because they shine with the light of the Two Trees.

*But the fact that the Silmarili are the most beautiful jewels ever can still hold.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Silmarili are unique from all other stones because they are unbreakable, and also because they shine with the light of the Two Trees.

I would also note that at Smaug's liar, the third time Bilbo went down the tunnel, was described as absolutely dark. Once torches were lit, the Arkenstone reflected light, but it did not glow on its own.

Is the Arkenstone ever described as giving off light on its own?

[oddkins]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I would also note that at Smaug's liar, the third time Bilbo went down the tunnel, was described as absolutely dark. Once torches were lit, the Arkenstone reflected light, but it did not glow on its own.

Is the Arkenstone ever described as giving off light on its own?

Well, this quote does seem to imply that...

Originally Posted by The Hobbit

The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it and changed it into ten thousand sparks of radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.

[blantyr]

Another relevent quote from The Hobbit.

Near the bottom, as well as he could judge, Bilbo slipped on his ring and went ahead. But he did not need it: the darkness was complete, and they were all invisible, ring or no ring. In fact, so black was it that the hobbit came to the opening unexpectedly, put his hand on air, stumbled forward, and rolled headlong into the hall!

There he lay face downwards on the foloor and did not dar to get up, or hardly even to breathe. But nothing moved. There was not a gleam of light -- unless, as it seemed to him, when at last he slowly raised his head, there was a pale white glint, above him and far off in the gloom.

This would confirm that the Arkenstone is a light source, not just a reflector. The description of the light intensity is not convincing, though, nor are there tales of the Arkenstone burning the hands of any evil one who holds it.

I remain dubious. The Arkenstone just is not described as bright enough to be placed in the sky as a star.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mellon

Thanks for the welcome!

My point is this;
the key argument that those who DON'T believe that Arkenstone is a Silmaril seem to be making is that the text of the Hobbit says that it was cut by the dwarves which would not be possible were it in fact a Silmaril.

But in the same paragraph it is described as being without peer in all the world which would, I agree, be inconsistent with it being a Silmaril (since there are three of those) but would also contradict the idea of the Silmarils being the most amazing gems in existence (which is, I think we can agree, explicitly stated in the Silmarillion) as it would suggest that the Arkenstone was MORE RARE being as it were one of a kind.

The argument goes, at least as I understand it, that Tolkien was stating that the Arkenston had been cut, rather than that being Bilbo's opinion. In my view this is implausible as it would also impute that Tolkien intended to suggest that the Arkenstone was rarer than the Silmarils themselves!

Thanks for the clarification, Mellon.

My argument in my previous post was not meant to be taken seriously, of course– just to point out that an implausibility is better than an impossibility. The thing is, *both* problems only arise if you take the bit about the Arkenstone's uniqueness as being absolutely literal and authoritative (which is what your argument rests on, as I understand it).

Now, let's look at the context.

Originally Posted by The Hobbit

It was the Arkenstone, the Heart of the Mountain. So Bilbo guessed from Thorin's description: but indeed there could not be two such gems, even in such a hoard, even in all the world.

That's just showing Bilbo's reasoning process: "Oh right, this thing must be the Arkenstone! Can't be two of them!"

Then (in slight "flashback") we get a detailed description of him finding the jewel, and of the jewel itself:

Originally Posted by The Hobbit

The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it and changed it into ten thousand sparks of radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.

At this point the narrative has shifted modes: we're being given that information directly, not as a "guess" or "thought" of Bilbo's. Otherwise it would probably go something like, "Bilbo guessed that it had been cut by the dwarves..."

In other words, one is subjective third-person, the other objective– and so there is actually no contradiction.

Originally Posted by Mellon

But perhaps I just really want them to be one and the same.....it makes the whole adventure more magical somehow!

Let me put it this way: the Arkenstone can be thought of as a Silmaril "by ancestry". We know Tolkien had The Silmarillion in mind when writing The Hobbit. (In fact, there is good evidence that he originally conceived it as taking place much earlier, and in Beleriand.) I don't know enough about this to say whether or not he ever intended to include an actual Silmaril in The Hobbit, but he must at any rate have based the Arkenstone's description on them.

EDIT: I know The Hobbit is presented as Bilbo's autobiography, ("There and Back Again"), but again I wouldn't take that too literally, since within the story, the omniscient narrator is certainly not Bilbo. (Not unless Bilbo is supposed to be suffering from Gollumesque level of insanity, anyway!)

[FlimFlamSam]

Mellon spoke: [But perhaps I just really want them to be one and the same.....it makes the whole adventure more magical somehow!]
An excellent and the best written essay I have seen on this topic can be found in The History of the Hobbit: Part 2 Return to Bag-End pgs. 603-609.

Needless to say, also reading the development of The Hobbit itself.
If you get a chance to ever pick up these two books (Part 1 entitled Mr. Baggins) it is a worthy purchase.

As an aside, it is also one of the few places where the original text of Riddles in the Dark pre-Lord of the Rings can be found as there were apparently only about 17,000 copies made collectively in the UK and US before it was revised to conform with the Lord of the Rings; along with essays on Gollum himself, the riddles, the Ring, and historic influences regarding magical invisibility in this chapter. The books have essays on relevant topics for each chapter, including the aforementioned Arkenstone/Silmaril/Gem-necklace of Girion/Nauglamir essay.

[Galin]

Rateliff does write a good article on this, but I don't think he uncovered any text or marginal note, for example, that shows Tolkien even questioning whether the Arkenstone might be a Silmaril (not that anyone said he did in the first place, or that Tolkien necessarily needed to note it on paper). John Rateliff notes the sense of finality (that the Silmarils were lost) in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology and various versions of the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa...

'Despite the sense of finality in the passages just quoted, Tolkien had in fact changed his mind four times in the previous fifteen years about the holy jewel's fate...' J. Rateliff

I think that's a rather notable 'despite,' because the Sketch and the 1930 Qenta are still relatively close in date to the writing of The Hobbit.

'Just as the sword of Turgon King of Gondolin had somehow survived... it is thus more than possible that Tolkien was playing in The Hobbit with the idea of having one of Feanor's wondrous jewels reappear,...' J. Rateliff

But 'more than possible' isn't saying much in my opinion. No doubt Tolkien changed his mind enough times, so the implication here seems to be that Tolkien might change his mind about this finality once again. OK, possible, but is there textual evidence to show that he did for his new story? Another implication appears to be that since an item like Turgon's sword survived, maybe one of the Silmarils might too. Well again, that only goes so far I think.

A further element of the evidence appears to be the word arkenstone -- but as Rateliff himself notes, this word fits for 'precious or holy jewel', and is found in Beowulf and The Christ, for examples in Old English. Tolkien's use of the term is fitting in both cases, but this 'connection' is nothing new at this point, as the Old English snippets of the Silmarillion writings were published some time ago now in The History of Middle-Earth series.

With respect to possibly new information gleaned from drafts for The Hobbit, Rateliff notes that the Arkenstone evolved out of the Gem of Girion, which was a gem given by Girion of Dale to the Dwarves (although it is not told how Girion got this gem in any case). And as for the compared descriptions (how both jewels looked, or dealt with light), even Rateliff notes than any similarities here do not prove that the Arkenstone was intended as a Silmaril.

I realize Rateliff's commentary, however one takes it, hinges on a combination of things, and to be fair, it should be read in full, but here we have jools that an author wished to set apart as particularly notable and beautiful, so to my mind even a measure of borrowing of description would not be unexpected.

Some measure of 'literary borrowing' (or a better term that I can't think of at the moment) does not necessarily make the arkenstone a Silmaril, and I think we are still wanting textual evidence -- at least something direct I mean -- that Tolkien was actually playing with the notion of making this gem a Silmaril specifically, as there doesn't seem to be any confirming text or note in the draft stages of The Hobbit (which would be new to the case, so to speak).

[Formendacil]

For what it's worth, the peerless quality of the Arkenstone could be precisely because the Dwarves cut it. When Bilbo recognises that there could not be two such stones in the whole world, he might be noticing the flawless gem-cutting craftsmanship of the Dwarves as well as the enormous size of the flawless jewel. This would be congruent with Tolkien's general presentation of Middle-earth as beset with the "long decline" from original greatness into later imitation. It would be entirely consistent for the Dwarves to never again be capable of cutting so well another Arkenstone--even if one ever turned up again to be cut. The Dwarves of Thorin and Dáin's day were no longer the Dwarves who had lived in Moria (as they would have been in Thráin I's day) or even those of pre-Smaug Erebor. The Kingdom Under the Mountain would flourish again... but it would not be the Golden Age.

Also, as a somewhat impish aside, the comment that there could not be two such things in the world need not indicate at all that the Arkenstone is the greatest or most beautiful gem in the world... though it is clear from the text that the Arkenstone wasn't the ugliest gem in the world...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Some measure of 'literary borrowing' (or a better term that I can't think of at the moment) does not necessarily make the arkenstone a Silmaril, and I think we are still wanting textual evidence -- at least something direct I mean -- that Tolkien was actually playing with the notion of making this gem a Silmaril specifically, as there doesn't seem to be any confirming text or note in the draft stages of The Hobbit (which would be new to the case, so to speak).

Okay, that was just a speculation– and of course even direct evidence wouldn't make the Arkenstone itself a Silmaril.