Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Mithalwen]

But Lord isn't the same as King. He can be lord of Moria and still be a loyal subject of Dain. Rather as the Princes of Dol Amroth ruled their land as afiefdom of Gondor - even in the absence of the King they seem to be subject to the Stewards - Imrahil only takes nominal charge in the power vacuum left by Denethor.

[Galadriel55]

Moreover, Balin was Lord of Moria, not Erebor.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Returning to the original question, the most complete discussions of Thorin's years of exile are in HME XII and UT. Forgive the long quotations: brevity will have to cede its place to completeness.

[A discussion of Thorin and Thráin's parts in the Battle of Nanduhirion precedes this passage.]

Thus [Thorin] got his name, or also because in memory of this he bore ever after at his back a shield made of oak wood without colour or device, and vowed to do so until he was hailed again as king.

When Thráin went away Thorin was 95, a great dwarf of proud bearing and full manhood. Maybe because rid of the Ring, Thorin long remained in Ered Luin, labouring and journeying and gathering such wealth as he could, until his people had fair houses in the hills and were not [? ill content], though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain and the wealth and bliss of the Great Hall and the light of the Arkenstone. But the years lengthened, and the embers of his heart began to grow hot as Thorin brooded on the wrongs of his house and people. Remembering too that Thrór had lain upon him the vengeance due to Smaug.

But Erebor was far away and his people only few; and he had little hope that Dáin Ironfoot would help in any attempt upon the dragon. For Thorin thought ever after the manner of his kingly forefathers, counting forces and weapons and the chances of war, as his hammer fell on the red iron in his forge.

The Peoples of Middle-Earth (HME XII), p.281

Typescript B of the early version of this tale as given in UT follows essentially the same story.

So Thorin Oakenshield became the Heir of Durin, but an heir without hope. At the sack of Erebor he had been too young to bear arms, but at Azanulbizar he had fought in the van of the assault; and when Thráin was lost he was ninety-five, a great Dwarf of proud bearing. He had no Ring, and (for that reason maybe) he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering folk of Durin that heard of his dwelling and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away, and the treasure and bliss of the Great Hall in the light of the Arkenstone.

The years lengthened. The embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again, as he brooded on the wrongs of his House and of the vengeance upon the Dragon that was bequeathed to him. He thought of weapons and armies and alliances, as his great hammer rang in the forge; but the armies were dispersed and the alliances were broken and the axes of his people were few; and a great anger without hope burned him, as he smote the red iron on the anvil.

UT p.328

It's fairly obvious, even had we not Christopher Tolkien's word for it, that these passages are quite closely related. Indeed, the second is a reworded and condensed version of the first that changes no significant detail. The main point appears to be that the recovery of Erebor remains Thorin's chief concern. He takes the extraordinary step of displaying no emblem on his shield until he can recover his grandfather's kingdom; he broods on a desire to recover it by open war, but we are reminded that his people are too few and his alliances too unreliable for this to be possible. Gandalf even reminds him elsewhere in The Quest of Erebor that an army of Dwarves would have to face worse enemies than Smaug before they reached Erebor, even if such a force could be gathered at all.

It seems, then, that the Ered Luin and, indeed Eriador in general, are simply temporary homes to Thorin; convenient places to build up his wealth and following until an assault on Smaug can be mounted. To declare himself king of the Blue Mountains would in a way be an admission that he had given up the idea of reclaiming the Lonely Mountain. It seems fairly clear to me that he is uninterested in any other title, and no doubt bound up with this is the theme of the duty of vengeance that Tolkien stresses so forcefully. Thorin has an hereditary blood feud with Smaug, which is a more serious obligation even than reclaiming the kingdom of his ancestors. To take for himself any other lordship would be at best a distraction from his chief purpose.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And when I think about it, was it really beyond the powers of a large force of Dwarves, say the size of the army at the Battle of Nanduhirion, to have destroyed one Balrog? After all, one Elf accomplished just that twice in Gondolin.

I think we need to be very careful when comparing the old Fall of Gondolin material with LR. Tolkien's conception of the individual strength of the Balrogs changed a great deal in the twenty years or so that separate them. Regardless of the possibility of killing Durin's bane, however, there are at least two reasons why the survivors of Nanduhirion would not have faced him.

The first reason is one of motive. As the unnamed survivors themselves declare: "We fought this war for vengeance, and vengeance we have taken. But it is not sweet. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it." [1] The Dwarves at Nanduhirion all had homes to go to; they were not in a position to undertake a long occupation of Moria. It was more than they signed up to do.

Hinted at in these words is the second reason: the battle of Azanulbizar was characterised by heavy losses on both sides. It's likely that the Dwarven survivors were too few and too exhausted to face something like a Balrog, even had they wanted to take back Moria.

As regards the succession of Durin, Dáin is not only the most obvious, but possibly the only heir. He is the eldest remaining member of the senior line of descent, and he has an army at his back. Given the information available I can't think of someone better qualified, and Dwarves are nothing if not practical.

***

[1] LR Appendix A, p.1049

[Kuruharan]

and he had little hope that Dáin Ironfoot would help in any attempt upon the dragon

The length of time since I'd seriously read the Tolkien background materials starts to show. I'd forgotten that particular line.

I find it interesting in light of the earlier conversation regarding Dain and Thorin.

I read that line to say even if Thorin appeared in the Iron Hills one day and said to Dain, "What ho, old bean! Time to rally the troops to take out that nasty, overgrown lizard, what, what!" Dain would have said something to the effect of, "No." I wonder whether Dain would have thought the whole enterprise insane or if he thought Thorin would make a botch of it.

At this point I would also freely speculate about the nature of dwarven kingship shown by Dain's ability to refuse Thorin...but I think it didn't have much to do with the formalities of the dwarven monarchy and more to do with the realpolitik of Thorin being unable to force Dain to go.

[Formendacil]

A scenario occurs to me in all this that is interesting, and only moderately tangential. What if Thorin had not managed to retake Erebor? Let us suppose, perhaps, that Thorin & Co. failed, that Bilbo was not able to tell the thrush about Smaug's weakspot, and the son of Thráin died with all his company on the slopes of the Lonely Mountain. Or what if Thorin had never run into Gandalf and been able to put together a plan and company--a situation where he would die lonely and embittered in his Blue Mountain home--what then?

Well, we know that Thorin was childless, and that Dáin Ironfoot was his direct heir (Fíli and Kíli, of course, were his sister-sons my read on Dwarven succession is that it was more Salic than the French). What then? I can't see Dáin travelling to the Blue Mountains to "inherit" Thorin's smithy there--not when he had a much more impressive lordship in the Iron Hills. Nor can I see him refusing any title save that of King Under the Mountain--and I agree with Squatter's assessment that this was the ONLY title Thorin was interested in pursuing. It seems more than likely to me, therefore, that had Smaug not been taken out and the mountain reclaimed when it was, that Dáin would have been the first "King of the Iron Hills."

It also strikes me that the biggest difference between Thorin and Dáin in this respect is not Thorin's intractability vs. Dáin's pragmatism (though this *is* an element); rather, I think it has to do with their ages. Thorin remembered Erebor. What is more, he remembered Erebor specifically as the son of the son of the King Under the Mountain, as the dwarf who, barring Smaug and/or premature death, was raised to expect that he would someday be King Under the Mountain himself. Dáin, on the other hand, was younger--if my memory serves, he was young enough that he would not remember Erebor. In any case, he probably didn't live there, since his grandfather, Grór, moved to the Iron Hills, where Dáin and his father would both eventually rule.

Consequently, Dáin's memory of the House of Durin was not the same as Thorin's--that is to say, it was not bound up with the Kingship of Erebor. Certainly, we know that once he became king, his memory of the kingship did not hinged on the possession of Khazad-dûm. Looking back historically, it makes one wonder what the Lords of the Longbeards called themselves after Durin VI and Náin I died at the hands of the Balrog. Did Thráin I and his son, Thorin I, call themselves Kings of Moria?

Although Thráin I settled in Erebor and found the Arkenstone there, I doubt he called himself "King Under the Mountain"--and if he did, it doesn't seem to have stuck, since his son Thorin I decided that the Grey Mountains were just as good a place to live as Erebor. My analysis of this situation is the Heirs of Durin after the loss of Moria were just as "lost" as Thrór, Thráin II, and Thorin II after the loss of Erebor.

Indeed, after Glóin, Óin, Náin II, and Dáin I ruled in the Grey Mountains, it seems to me to have been a very fortunate thing for Thrór that he was able to "return" to Erebor after the dragons drove his people out of the Grey Mountains, else the Kingdom Under the Mountain might not have ever been really established at all. Instead, he might have gone with his brother, Grór, to the Iron Hills and pined about the loss of the Grey Mountains.

On that note, I think it's also worth noting that the loss of the Grey Mountains before Erebor was probably on Thrór's mind a lot after the loss of Erebor as well, and might have engendered a thirst for vengeance in his line to fall back again, but to toe the line against evil things and retake Erebor or die trying.

[Inziladun]

Nice post, Form.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Although Thráin I settled in Erebor and found the Arkenstone there, I doubt he called himself "King Under the Mountain"--and if he did, it doesn't seem to have stuck, since his son Thorin I decided that the Grey Mountains were just as good a place to live as Erebor. My analysis of this situation is the Heirs of Durin after the loss of Moria were just as "lost" as Thrór, Thráin II, and Thorin II after the loss of Erebor.

Looking more closely at it, I wonder if the Longbeards, being the people of Durin, might not have been the only Dwarves to have a "king", and maybe that weighed on them all the more heavily when Khazad-dûm, and later Erebor, were lost.

In The Silmarillion, the only Dwarven cities we see are Nogrod and Belegost.
Interestingly, they don't seem to be referred to as "kingdoms", and their leaders not as "kings".

One [pearl] there was as great as a dove's egg....the chieftain of the Dwarves of Belegost prized it above a mountain of wealth.

Of the Sindar

And later, at the Nirnaeth, the dragon Glaurung was wounded by Dwarves, and

in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghâl, Lord of Belegost.

Of the Fifth Battle

After the sack of Doriath by the Dwarves of Nogrod, and their subsequent ambush in Ossiriand, Beren

himself slew the Lord of Nogrod.

The Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, of course, were not of the Longbeards.

In additon, the Ring inscription said "Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone."

So, maybe actual Dwarven kingship was reserved for those of the line of Durin, which certainly could have influenced Thorin in not declaring himself king of a relatively small people in the Ered Luin.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Dáin, on the other hand, was younger--if my memory serves, he was young enough that he would not remember Erebor. In any case, he probably didn't live there, since his grandfather, Grór, moved to the Iron Hills, where Dáin and his father would both eventually rule.

I'm quite tired right now so I will limit my comment to one thing.

I didn't think Dain's family were ever in Erebor. I thought that at least since around the time of the fall of Khazad-dum they had been in the Iron Hills.

I may be mistaken about this.

More to come.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm quite tired right now so I will limit my comment to one thing.

I didn't think Dain's family were ever in Erebor. I thought that at least since around the time of the fall of Khazad-dum they had been in the Iron Hills.

I may be mistaken about this.

More to come.

I think you might be placing Dáin's place in the line of Durin at far more distaff position than it properly occupies. He was son of Náin, who was son of Grór, who was the son of King Dáin I, who ruled in the Grey Mountains--and since Thrór was the elder brother of Grór, Dáin's lineage is the same as Thorin's before that. Indeed, if Dáin's family line had diverged from Thorin's before the fall of Moria, then Balin, Dwalin, Óin, Glóin, and Gimli (at least) would have had prior claims on the Kingdom Under the Mountain.

I'm almost positive that "Dwarves and Men" says that the Longbeards colonised the Iron Hills (and most of the Grey and Misty Mountains between there and Moria) long before the fall of Khazad-dûm, but Dáin's patrilineal ancestors could not have lived there before his grandfather, because it wasn't until Grór that his ancestors weren't Kings of Durin's line.

So... while I agree that Dáin's family (but only Dáin's family insofar as it is distinct from Thorin Oakenshield's) was never associated with Erebor, and while it is true that the Longbeards were associated with the Iron Hills almost since time immemorial, Dáin's family history there doesn't go back QUITE as far as that.