Itaril

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Every book has to be tweaked a little bit before it becomes a movie - usually because there's too many things in too short a time, and some have to be cut out. I can understand that, and that's why I don't hold any grudge against the LOTR movies for not having anything from Crickhollow till the Downs. But one thing is tweaking, and another is using the athor's names to shape a totally different creation.

Oh, but I think the omissions, given the additions, suggest very much what PJ is unable to appreciate in Tolkien. I don't think he respected the elements of Fairie enough--hence ignoring the Bombadils and the Barrow Downs--and too much sought after the action flick.

As with any artist, he has the right to his interpretation, but he can't go calling it Tolkien.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh, but I think the omissions, given the additions, suggest very much what PJ is unable to appreciate in Tolkien. I don't think he respected the elements of Fairie enough--hence ignoring the Bombadils and the Barrow Downs--and too much sought after the action flick.

As with any artist, he has the right to his interpretation, but he can't go calling it Tolkien.

Personally, I would have much preferred the inclusion of the sons of Elrond and the Rangers of the North, instead of that whole army of Lorien walking a hundred miles through enemy-occupied territory to Helms Deep and then suddenly disappearing by the end of the battle. What, every last one of them got killed? So much for the vaunted skill of the Elves.

I still say, when PJ stuck with the original plot, the movie was magical. Even when dialogue of one character in the book was stated by another character in the movie, it was moving. But everytime PJ strayed away with his fancies, the sequences were farcical. Think about it:

1. Arwen summoning the river to drown the Nazgul (and then looking utterly surprised when it happened).

2. Elrond whining about Arwen dying. Elrond whinig about the list of allies growing thin. Elrond whining in general.

4. Elrond riding several hundred miles to deliver a sword.

5. The warg attack, Aragorn falling off a cliff and then frenching his horse in a torrid beach scene reminiscent of Burt Lancaster and Deborah Kerr in From Here to Eternity.

6. Faramir dragging the Hobbits (and what was left of his character) to Osgiliath, just so Frodo could climb a tower to show the One Ring, the ultimate object of desire, to a flying Nazgul -- AND YET ALL THE NAZGUL AND THE ENTIRE ARMY OF MORDOR DIDN'T SURROUND THEM INSTANTANEOUSLY AND CRUSH THEM! No, the Nazgul simply flies away, Faramir has a change of heart and Sam gets to give a teary-eyed soliloquoy.

5. Nutty Denethor sets an olympic record in the mile run, while on fire.

6. Dull-witted Treebeard gets outwitted by clever Hobbits.

7. Frodo tells Sam to "Go home", even though he's a thousand miles from home, in Mordor, surrounded by thousands of Orcs. Some friend.

8. Green Scrubbing Bubbles not only destroyed Orcs, but gave the walls of Minas Tirith a streak-free shine. Look, I can see myself!

I could go on and on, but I've given myself a headache. I would prefer that such shenanigans not occur in The Hobbit, but I have given up hope that (Itaril) Peter Jackson will restrain (Tauriel) himself from (Orlando Bloom) outlandish (the White Council) scripting. Bah.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I still say, when PJ stuck with the original plot, the movie was magical. Even when dialogue of one character in the book was stated by another character in the movie, it was moving. But everytime PJ strayed away with his fancies, the sequences were farcical. Think about it:

I don't know...I think PJ just plain didn't want to do the elves right. I'm just hoping that Golden Haired Thranduil doesn't end up dish water blonde (Hi Celeborn the gray) or with a receding hairline. Of course, that would make special snowflake Tauriel look so much better next to that ugly old elf....

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

From a related comment in another thread:

Originally Posted by Rumil

And another Mary-Sue-iel...

... strong female roles are thin on Middle Earth in Tolkien's work ...

Which begs the question: So why introduce them?

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

... I think PJ just plain didn't want to do the elves right...

The elves? Look what short shrift he gave the hobbits! I mean, the wounded Frodo didn't get to ride Glorfindel's great white horse to safety at the Ford of Bruinen. The brunette elf chick Arwen got to do that. Merry didn't get his big dramatic scene with Théoden on the Pelennor Fields, sending the dying King off to drink mead with his ancestors in Valhala. The Rohan blonde chick, Éowyn, got that big moment. And of course, all the hobbits lost out when they didn't get to scour the Shire of evil men, Saruman, and Wormtongue. Talk about getting royally screwed so that some barely mentioned Appendix girls could get in more implausible, forced screen time swapping spit with -- or simply drooling over -- Aragorn. The elves got off lucky by comparison.

Now that Peter Jackson has to make a movie ostensibly about one particular hobbit -- and a confirmed bachelor at that -- he invents yet another elf-chick character to waste precious screen time that the schizoid Smeagol-Gollum could easily employ to memorable effect. If any character deserves an expanded role in these films, then the pathetic/treacherous Smeagol-Gollum does. I mean, face it, the elves have pretty much given up on Middle-earth. They mostly just want to leave. So I say, let them. At any rate, Bilbo Baggins and Smeagool-Gollum have more to do with the fate of Middle-earth than any elf-chick afterthought possibly could. These films should make that truth abundantly clear.

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Of course, that would make special snowflake Tauriel look so much better next to that ugly old elf....

I have no confidence that the special snowflake Tauriel will look anything but instantly risible next to just about anyone: elf, dwarf, man, or hobbit -- ugly or otherwise.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

The elves? Look what short shrift he gave the hobbits! I mean, the wounded Frodo didn't get to ride Glorfindel's great white horse to safety at the Ford of Bruinen. The brunette elf chick Arwen got to do that. Merry didn't get his big dramatic scene with Théoden on the Pelennor Fields, sending the dying King off to drink mead with his ancestors in Valhala. The Rohan blonde chick, Éowyn, got that big moment. And of course, all the hobbits lost out when they didn't get to scour the Shire of evil men, Saruman, and Wormtongue. Talk about getting royally screwed so that some barely mentioned Appendix girls could get in more implausible, forced screen time swapping spit with -- or simply drooling over -- Aragorn. The elves got off lucky by comparison.

Well by elves, I was mainly referring to the male elves...to be frank, I tend to forget Arwen was even there. Out of the male elves, Elrond now has a receding hairline, anger management issues, and a hatred of men. Celeborn has grey hair and a speech impediment, Haldir and co are apparently such bad soldiers that every single one dies at Helm's deep, Legolas apparently has to state the obvious (A Diversion! Orcs! A Chair!*) every single time, and half the unnamed elves, you can't even tell their gender.....

Now that Peter Jackson has to make a movie ostensibly about one particular hobbit -- and a confirmed bachelor at that -- he invents yet another elf-chick character to waste precious screen time that the schizoid Smeagol-Gollum could easily employ to memorable effect.

Ahh...but then PJ wouldn't have his own characters, and he'd just be *gasp* following what the books says. Everybody knows that audiences these days can't watch movies that don't have Action! Hot Women! Dumb Jokes!

If any character deserves an expanded role in these films, then the pathetic/treacherous Smeagol-Gollum does. I mean, face it, the elves have pretty much given up on Middle-earth. They mostly just want to leave. So I say, let them. At any rate, Bilbo Baggins and Smeagool-Gollum have more to do with the fate of Middle-earth than any elf-chick afterthought possibly could. These films should make that truth abundantly clear.

Not all the elves do...Celeborn and Thranduil both stay past the end of the War of the Ring, which is a big reason that I like them better then Elrond or Galadriel...they seem so much more alive. It's also one of the reasons I dislike this Tauriel character so much - he already has wonderful elves in Galion and Thranduil for Mirkwood, he doesn't need another one.

I have no confidence that the special snowflake Tauriel will look anything but instantly risible next to just about anyone: elf, dwarf, man, or hobbit -- ugly or otherwise.

That was sarcasm on my part...note the special snowflake description. I only call people that when I'm implying that they're really only special because mommy (or in this case, PJ) thinks they're oh so special. PJ, in my opinion, has messed up so badly that he's no longer deserving of the term adapter - he's no better then a glorified fanfic author.

*One of these might be an invention on my part, however, everybody knows Legolas was thinking it at some point.

[Galadriel55]

I think that TMT has a good point about Gollum. That's one interesting character, with plenty ways to develop it more (although in LOTR PJ simply murdered it! ). I think that he should get more attention than some Itaril-Tauriel blasphemy. Unless it's going to be an expanded version of that sequence where he decays alive as he turns into that colourless skeleton...

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

... note the special snowflake description. I only call people that when I'm implying that they're really only special because mommy (or in this case, PJ) thinks they're oh so special.

I like that "special snowflake" characterization. I had gotten stuck trying to fill out the last line of a verse stanza with something that had to rhyme with "cast" or "passed," etc. I really wanted to use "aghast" but I couldn't make it fit following the comic-book references in line 5. Your mention of a snowflake at least gave me something to work with. Still not what I wanted to get across, but at least I've got something passable for the present. Thanks again for the helpful suggestion.

Murkwood Mary Sue's come back
Rebranded and recast.
First "Itaril" imploded, now
It’s "Tauriel" who’s passed
From Vicky Vale to Lois Lane:
A snowflake melting fast.

I give the elves credit for trying to write poetry, Tolkien's own favored means of literary expression. However, since I don't speak, read, or write Elvish dialects, I have to go with Bilbo Baggins as the hobbit Homer of Middle-earth. Naturally, none of this versification stuff has a chance in hell of making it into a Peter Jackson hack-and-slash action extravaganza. Now, if instead of Murkwood Mary Sue disemboweling orcs, wargs, and giant spiders, this Tauriel turned into an elegant, elvish Edna St. Vincent Millay, saying of the world's cruelty and injustice:

I know.
But I do not approve.
And I am not resigned.

... then I could appreciate such truly feminine strength and character. Of course, Galadriel would deliver such lines with more authority than Murkwood Mary Sue, just returned from her morning kung-fu choreography training, but if this story absolutely has to have something quintessentially elvish going on in King Thranduil's household while Bilbo skulks about, unseen, looking for a way to free his dwarf companions, then I would not mind witnessing a timelessly young elvish wordsmith audibly composing trenchant verse in King Thranduil's library. I think an invisible Bilbo would find that experience both enchanting and edifying, as well.

And then I woke up ...

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

I like that "special snowflake" characterization. I had gotten stuck trying to fill out the last line of a verse stanza with something that had to rhyme with "cast" or "passed," etc. I really wanted to use "aghast" but I couldn't make it fit following the comic-book references in line 5. Your mention of a snowflake at least gave me something to work with. Still not what I wanted to get across, but at least I've got something passable for the present. Thanks again for the helpful suggestion.

You're welcome! I really like your poems. I'd try one, but in my family, my sister got all the poetry skills, and I got the essay writing skills...But yours are wonderful.

Naturally, none of this versification stuff has a chance in hell of making it into a Peter Jackson hack-and-slash action extravaganza. Now, if instead of Murkwood Mary Sue disemboweling orcs, wargs, and giant spiders, this Tauriel turned into an elegant, elvish Edna St. Vincent Millay, saying of the world's cruelty and injustice:

I know.
But I do not approve.
And I am not resigned.

... then I could appreciate such truly feminine strength and character. Of course, Galadriel would deliver such lines with more authority than Murkwood Mary Sue, just returned from her morning kung-fu choreography training, but if this story absolutely has to have something quintessentially elvish going on in King Thranduil's household while Bilbo skulks about, unseen, looking for a way to free his dwarf companions, then I would not mind witnessing a timelessly young elvish wordsmith audibly composing trenchant verse in King Thranduil's library. I think an invisible Bilbo would find that experience both enchanting and edifying, as well.

I don't think I'd mind this character, if she was what you are describing - a minor background character, inserted to set the mood in Thranduil's caverns, acting in an elvish fashion. Unfortunately, she's some mary sue of a modern woman, poorly disguised as an elf. *sigh* I'm just hoping that she isn't inserted onto the White Council or anything - one woman on the Council - Galadriel, not Tauriel. Also, I'm wondering who all they're going to place onto the Council - Galadriel, Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf, and Elrond of course. But what about Celeborn or Cirdan, neither of who, as far as I am aware, have been cast. If Tauriel gets on it, and neither of them do.... Must remember to wear pointy high heels to the movie that day....

[Galadriel]

What about this Tauriel chick? I heard she's affiliated with Thranduil and/or Legolas...

[narfforc]

The name Tauriel say to me The Lady of the Forest.....will she be Thranduil's wife?


Orome= Tauron= Lord of Forests/Forester.

Galadriel= The Lady of the Tree.


Any thoughts on this?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Galadriel= The Lady of the Tree.

Galadh=tree. Galad=light. Riel=rig+el=garland+lady

Galadriel=Lady Crowned/Garlanded with Light.

Tauriel: taur=forset -iel=daughter Tauriel=Daughter of the Forest


Why the speculations about Elvish, though?

[Galin]

Well it's not the first time someone thought Galadriel's name was associated with trees...

'When Celeborn and Galadriel became the ruler of the Elves of Lórien (who were mainly in origin Silvan Elves and called themselves the Galadhrim) the name of Galadriel became associated with trees, an association that was aided by the name of her husband, which also appeared to contain a tree-word; so that outside Lórien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not so in Lórien itself.' Unfinished Tales

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Galadh=tree. Galad=light. Riel=rig+el=garland+lady

Galadriel=Lady Crowned/Garlanded with Light.

Tauriel: taur=forset -iel=daughter Tauriel=Daughter of the Forest


Why the speculations about Elvish, though?

J. R. R. Tolkien did not invent this pseudo-character Itaril/Tauriel. Peter Jackson did. And Peter Jackson says that the name means "Daughter of Mirkwood," referring to the name that men gave to Greenwood Forest after the Necromancer (i.e., Sauron) began spreading his evil shadow over the place in 1050 of the Third Age. Peter Jackson, a man (of sorts) has created this pseudo-character and given it (her) a name derived at least partially from the languages of men and not exclusively from the languages of elves.

In reality, though, given the transparent pandering to teeny-bopper/horny-adolescent consumer demographics, the name most likely means "actress with breasts from the television series Lost who mostly appears in tight-fitting jeans and a wet t-shirt."

As for all the Tree-Worshipping stuff -- especially in Northern Europe -- I recommend Chapter IX from Sir James George Frazer's The Golden Bough (a Study in Magic and Religion):

http://www.bartleby.com/196/17.html

Personally, though, if I had to choose between gods in trees vs godesses in tight-fitting jeans and wet t-shirts, I'd choose, well, ...