Elves and Free Will - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 06-01-2011, 06:27 PM

I don't really see that as meaning that Men had free will, and Elves did not. The individual retained free will always according to the will of the One. As a race, though, the Elves were pretty much restricted to a certain course.

The Elves alone of the Children were immortal, and did not naturally die in Arda. Therefore, they really weren't suited for life in a mortal environment. I see their place as ultimately teachers of the other races (though they certainly had their share of heroic parts in shaping the history of the world), which is why they eventually had to relinquish their attachments to the mortal lands and return West, or else wither away to insignificance.

Men, on the other hand, were in a suitable place living in a world in which things "died" as they did. More importantly, the fate of the race of Men was left open-ended: no such ultimatum was given to them as was the Elves. To Men ultimately was given the power to make the world their own, and see things through to the End, taking part in things that had not been revealed to the Valar in the Music, but were the province of Eru alone.

Galadriel55 · 06-01-2011, 06:33 PM

Like Zil said, the "gift" that Men received was the ability to leave the world and detatch themselves from it upon death. I don't think it was anything connected to free will.

Galin · 06-02-2011, 05:26 AM

Verlyn Flieger argues that Elves do not have free will in an 'external sense' -- that is, their choices cannot change external outcomes but may have inner consequences for them, as with Feanor choosing not to surrender the Silmarils.

I disagree; but for now I'll generally note that recent editions of Tolkien Studies not only 'debate' the matter of Elves and free will, but one essay provides previously unpublished material from JRRT himself that relates to this matter (presented by Carl Hostetter). While certainly not an attempt to restrict discussion here, I recommend the following three articles on the subject, if you can get them:

A) 'The Music and the Task: Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth'
Verlyn Flieger

B) 'Fate and Free Will'
J.R.R. Tolkien
Carl F. Hostetter

(both in volume VI)

C) 'Strange and free' —On Some Aspects of the Nature of Elves and Men
Thomas Fornet-Ponse

(volume VII)

I especially recommend B for the 'new' descriptions from JRRT!

06-01-2011, 06:27 PM	#1
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	I don't really see that as meaning that Men had free will, and Elves did not. The individual retained free will always according to the will of the One. As a race, though, the Elves were pretty much restricted to a certain course. The Elves alone of the Children were immortal, and did not naturally die in Arda. Therefore, they really weren't suited for life in a mortal environment. I see their place as ultimately teachers of the other races (though they certainly had their share of heroic parts in shaping the history of the world), which is why they eventually had to relinquish their attachments to the mortal lands and return West, or else wither away to insignificance. Men, on the other hand, were in a suitable place living in a world in which things "died" as they did. More importantly, the fate of the race of Men was left open-ended: no such ultimatum was given to them as was the Elves. To Men ultimately was given the power to make the world their own, and see things through to the End, taking part in things that had not been revealed to the Valar in the Music, but were the province of Eru alone. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

06-01-2011, 06:33 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,512	Like Zil said, the "gift" that Men received was the ability to leave the world and detatch themselves from it upon death. I don't think it was anything connected to free will. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 06-01-2011 at 06:49 PM.

06-02-2011, 05:26 AM	#3
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Verlyn Flieger argues that Elves do not have free will in an 'external sense' -- that is, their choices cannot change external outcomes but may have inner consequences for them, as with Feanor choosing not to surrender the Silmarils. I disagree; but for now I'll generally note that recent editions of Tolkien Studies not only 'debate' the matter of Elves and free will, but one essay provides previously unpublished material from JRRT himself that relates to this matter (presented by Carl Hostetter). While certainly not an attempt to restrict discussion here, I recommend the following three articles on the subject, if you can get them: A) 'The Music and the Task: Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth' Verlyn Flieger B) 'Fate and Free Will' J.R.R. Tolkien Carl F. Hostetter (both in volume VI) C) 'Strange and free' —On Some Aspects of the Nature of Elves and Men Thomas Fornet-Ponse (volume VII) I especially recommend B for the 'new' descriptions from JRRT!