"People do not decide to become extraordinary....

[Galadriel55]

You say that Aragorn was predestined and that he didn't have a choice. I think that everybody - always - has a choice. Maybe not much of a choice to someone as noble (and even less so) as Aragorn, but it's still there. What stopped all of ME from becoming orc-like beings? Their choice not to be such.

I don't realy like the word "predestined", because it sounds like "your fate is predetermined and everything that you may or may not do is already taken into account and it won't change anything". Which contradicts my above statement.

In other words, Aragorn was "meant" to rule the Reunited Kingdom... just as much as Arvedui was. The latter's prophecy mentioned the "other choice", and Aragorn's didn't - there were just a bunch of things from everywhere: Malbeth's words about the Pths of the Dead, Galadriel's advise, Ioreth's poem... But Aragorn didn't need to go through the Paths because of the words of someone long dead. He went because of a number of reasons - saving ME, saving his country and city, wanting to help ad put his full contribution into the War, etc.

He didn't need to go there, but he went. And that is one example of the many deeds that IMO make him a hero, and extraordinary.


So, my point -

“You don’t have to be a fantastic hero to do certain things – ... You can be just an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated.”

In order to become that hero, you first need to actually do the things.

[SlverGlass]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You say that Aragorn was predestined and that he didn't have a choice. I think that everybody - always - has a choice. Maybe not much of a choice to someone as noble (and even less so) as Aragorn, but it's still there. What stopped all of ME from becoming orc-like beings? Their choice not to be such.

I don't realy like the word "predestined", because it sounds like "your fate is predetermined and everything that you may or may not do is already taken into account and it won't change anything". Which contradicts my above statement.

In other words, Aragorn was "meant" to rule the Reunited Kingdom... just as much as Arvedui was. The latter's prophecy mentioned the "other choice", and Aragorn's didn't - there were just a bunch of things from everywhere: Malbeth's words about the Pths of the Dead, Galadriel's advise, Ioreth's poem... But Aragorn didn't need to go through the Paths because of the words of someone long dead. He went because of a number of reasons - saving ME, saving his country and city, wanting to help ad put his full contribution into the War, etc.

You make a fair point, Galadriel. It is true that everyone has a choice. A choice to choose between good and evil. Or a choice to sit back and do nothing. Aragorn was meant to rule the kingdom; yes. But the choice was his own. That is what makes him a hero.

If someone treads a particular path simply because he/she has no choice, I wouldn't call that person a hero. For me, Sam, Merry and Pippin (among the hobbits) are more of a hero that Frodo. As Frodo's choice was very limited, he sort of had to do it.

However, even though believe that Aragorn was a great person, I admire Legolas and Gimli more. They did what they did despite the fact that they didn't have to. They had complete freedom of choice, unlike Aragorn. If nothing, Aragorn would have had to make that journey if he had to wed Arwen.

Boromir did what he had to, to save his white city. What choice he had was no choice at all, since he loved his city so much. And Gandalf; he is a great person but not a hero (according to me). 'Choices' can include a great many things. However, not all of them can be applicable.

In the end our choices make us what and who we are, though our love of certain things/persons and our sense of rightness defines it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What stopped all of ME from becoming orc-like beings? Their choice not to be such.

I am sorry but I don't really agree with this particular point, Galadriel. Becoming orcs or any other embodiment of evil was no choice at all. The people of ME (most of them) had their pride and their determination, if nothing else. If we have to drag the matter of choice to a level where good and evil clashes, then Sauron or even Melkor would not have had to work so hard to establish their dominion.

Everybody has choices, this is very very true. But the extent of those choices are certainly limited. Not for all, but for most.

[Galadriel55]

I second your thoughts about Sam, Pippin, Gimli, etc - all the characters who followed the "main heroes" out of free will.

Originally Posted by SlverGlass

As Frodo's choice was very limited, he sort of had to do it.

True, but it was also very extreme - more so than a choice of "follow him till Buckland or till Bree" would be, at least.

I see what you mean, though - Frodo already had some responsibility for the Ring and the fate of ME, and his friends had none, but they deliberately took it onto themselves. There was more of a difference, even though the choice made a lesser difference (at least at the moment when it was made. Later on Elron finds out just how right Gandalf was to allow the hobbits to go.)

I don't know if that made any sense. The more I talk the more I confuse myself.

Originally Posted by SlverGlass

If someone treads a particular path simply because he/she has no choice, I wouldn't call that person a hero.

Depends. As you said, some choices are simply not applicable, so they aren't considered to be choices from the character's point of view.

For example, I think that every Elf that crossed the Helcaraxe is a hero for that deed - but they didn't have much of a choice.

Originally Posted by SlverGlass

I am sorry but I don't really agree with this particular point, Galadriel. Becoming orcs or any other embodiment of evil was no choice at all. The people of ME (most of them) had their pride and their determination, if nothing else. If we have to drag the matter of choice to a level where good and evil clashes, then Sauron or even Melkor would not have had to work so hard to establish their dominion.

Everybody has choices, this is very very true. But the extent of those choices are certainly limited. Not for all, but for most.

Point taken.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by SlverGlass

I am sorry but I don't really agree with this particular point, Galadriel. Becoming orcs or any other embodiment of evil was no choice at all. The people of ME (most of them) had their pride and their determination, if nothing else. If we have to drag the matter of choice to a level where good and evil clashes, then Sauron or even Melkor would not have had to work so hard to establish their dominion.

Everybody has choices, this is very very true. But the extent of those choices are certainly limited. Not for all, but for most.

Then again, becoming Orcs is a very extreme case. It would be equivalent to the Jews' 'choice' during the Holocaust.

The extent of those choices are limited, but, on a general scale, you can go pretty far with them. And I would change 'most' to 'many'. There are, of course, plenty of situations in which a person has a choice about as helpful as between the Devil and the deep blue sea, but they cannot speak for all (or even most) situations. This is, of course, a personal opinion, and I might have been inclined to say the opposite had I been brought up as a girl with members of the Taliban for a family.