Fantasy Morality

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Still, I don't see it as the only possible style of discussion.

See, no one ever claimed it was the only possible style of discussion.

[Morthoron]

Things get really disquieting on a thread when the discussion turns from disquisition to a dissertation on how one should discuss the discursive aspects of discourse, which I find is a disgusting digression.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

See, no one ever claimed it was the only possible style of discussion.

For that matter, nobody (except Dak, possibly) ever claimed that his or hers were (to quote you again, blantyr) "the only possible interpretations". Where exactly did you get that idea?

Now, I want you to understand this: I am a great believer in, and defender of, the right of readers to like what they like, dislike what they don't like, and generally approach books in any way they please, rather than having to interpret them in any one "official" manner.

However, once you move out of the realm of personal preference, I think it fair enough that you should be asked to support your statements.

Now, there are many things in Tolkien's work (as in many other writers' work, for that matter), that don't have a final, definitive answer. In fact, I believe most of us hold this as a basic assumption. But the thing is, often the value of a discussion lies not so much in its ultimate goal but in the interesting things that happen along the way. I really think this is something that people who disapprove of argument miss, just as much as those who are only interested in winning or losing.

Please don't think me hard line about this– I'm not saying every stray remark should be debated into the ground or that every statement must be proven from first principles. However, blantyr, the fact is that you have certainly not been shy about giving us your views, at length, on a considerable number of topics– have you? I ask you to consider how much practical difference there is, then, between saying your opinions should be above question, and maintaining you're always right?

[Herald_of_Mandos]

Originally Posted by leapofberen

My God, people...I think Tolkien would appreciate this discussion about as much as he appreciated hippies making LOTR into something other then what he originally intended. Granted, Tolkien's work is intellectual, but it is not intellectualism.

One of the biggest tragedies is approaching his works or ending his works in something other than the faerie that birthed it. We all appreciate the in depth discussion (I certainly love the finer points of Tolkien) but some of this is insane.

Originally Posted by leapofberen

To me, Middle Earth was, and is real. I think it is for all of us, in our hearts. Yet I am still holding out within the design that it really is tangible.

Right on! What makes these half-baked academic types think they have the right to say anything whatever until they've made absolutely sure that it couldn't possibly upset anybody's swarfega-dish for any reason at all? Don't they realise that just by speaking of "The Lord of the Rings" as "a novel by J.R.R Tolkien" they're dealing a vicious slap in the face to those of us who regard it as a sacred text? Why, it's like attacking the Cult of the Sonorous Enigma! It's the greatest tragedy since the Pica regime!

Of course, there are those who might try to tell you that posting on an internet forum pretty much does for suspension of disbelief in Middle-earth anyway, but then some people will say anything. Why, I've even heard there are lunatics out there who claim my beloved homeland of San Serriffe is totally fictitious! How dare they!

[leapofberen]

Exactly Mandos...Why did it take you so long to speak up? Have you been reading these posts? We have a lot of catching up to do in here!

[Herald_of_Mandos]

Originally Posted by leapofberen

Exactly Mandos...Why did it take you so long to speak up? Have you been reading these posts? We have a lot of catching up to do in here!

Well, I've been looking them over; we San Serriffeans tend to feel superficial details gets in the way of appreciation at the deeper, intuitive level, so I just don't feel the need to waste my time reading each and every post.

Talking of my culture, I wonder what people like N----n (as I'll call her to avoid conflict) would think of the dramas performed in our famous Festival of the Well-Made Play, the true meaning of which nobody in the audience comprehends? No doubt she would wish to subject them to some kind of icy academic analysis!

Not that I'm trying to pick a fight with anyone here. Just saying what I feel!

[Inziladun]

It would appear that there's an easy solution for those who don't find this thread appropriate, or worthy of their attention: simply avoid it and move on to other things.

[Bêthberry]

Inzil, I have to say that your siggie has inspired me to sit and to listen to, over and over again, the Chicago Symphony's version of the Overture and then to Karajan's version. My father loved Tannhauser but I can't remember which rendition I grew up with. Thank you so much for the remembrance. (/off topic)

I often have to laugh at the animosity of some Tolkien fans to "academic" discussion. Tolkien was himself an academic and his professional work represents a wide range of styles, from the very dry tomes of academe to the more passionate voice of the "essai." But the very foundation of his art is his love of language, of philology, and his keen interest in, as the academic Shippey has it, the "asterisk" poem/word/source, which haunts our interest and whets our curiosity to uncover more. This was, indeed, the very nature of Tolkien's own passion and it is the rare fan who doesn't share this.

There is, indeed, a great number of tum tum trees which Tolkien bemoaned (out of respect for all I refuse to give a footnote for that allusion), but by and large he had great respect for those who loved the tower. Most of us here, I believe, are those. One can love the tower and still want to discover the asterisk word.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It would appear that there's an easy solution for those who don't find this thread appropriate, or worthy of their attention: simply avoid it and move on to other things.

How absurd! Imagine if everyone had that kind of laissez faire attitude!

It is absolutely necessary for posters to voice their distaste for a certain topic, or the manner in which a topic is being discussed. Without people wasting immense amounts of time harping on inconsequential points, Internet forums would cease to exist.

And I, for one, will not be held responsible for the destruction of the Internet!

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Please don't think me hard line about this– I'm not saying every stray remark should be debated into the ground or that every statement must be proven from first principles. However, blantyr, the fact is that you have certainly not been shy about giving us your views, at length, on a considerable number of topics– have you? I ask you to consider how much practical difference there is, then, between saying your opinions should be above question, and maintaining you're always right?

There is not so much difference "between saying your opinions should be above question, and maintaining you're always right," however I assert neither. I would expect healthy diversity in people's views about Tolkien's works. I expect the diversity of views on Tolkien says as much about the diversity of people holding these views -- about how various downers see things -- as about Tolkien. As people will see different things in random ink blots, people will be attracted to different aspects of Tolkien's work and fit the work into their own way of seeing the world.

Dakêsîntrah might stand as an example, with his interest in world mythology and comparative religion coloring his posts. To the extent that my interests and studies don't overlap his, my interest in and understanding of Tolkien are going to focus on different aspects and ideas. While Dakêsîntrah and I might plausibly be unusual or extreme cases, I'd suggest we all bring something of ourselves into what we find in Middle Earth.

This being the case, I might not be so interested in debate and proofs as some. I also read Tolkien more as art than as a formal and consistent academic system. As such, I might not be using the same tools as others.