Branch thread: Tolkien's military technology

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Except until the War of the Ring nobody believed there would be a keen need to take down an oliphaunt.

Depends on where and when you were. Certainly, no one in the third age west of middle earth would have felt a need, as it seems dubios that any believed Mumakul still existed there (if they even really knew of them, beyond a hobbit legend) at least not ouside of Valinor (which if it had every animal and then some of ME must have had Oliphaunts). In the first age however, it seems like there may have been oliphaunts over much of the world (or how the Hobbits heard of them in the first place) moreover this would have been wild oliphaunts as opposed to the somewhat trained and domesticated ones of the war of the ring. Having some methof of taking down a rouge bull before it trampled your fields would have been of some importance. Of course as the Oliphaunts dissapeared from the West the need for such a weapon would be lost, even more so when the other animals you might need it for dissapeared like the really gigantic boars (the near Everholt size ones) and the Aurochses (Which is sort of what I always imagined the Kine of Araw to be) so it might well be lost. One wonders, however it if still persists in Harad where wild Oliphaunts still may exist (we don't know if the tamed ones represent the whole of the species or if wild ones are simply caught and tamed).
Speaking of Haradrim and thier weaponry, and opnion question. Given that, in some ways, the People of Near Harad are supposed to be vaguely reminiscent of out North Africa and Middle East, do you think they are supposed to use the so called "Saracen Draw" with thier archery (using your thumb to draw back the bowstring, rather than the first two fingers as in the "English Draw". From what I understand each has thier advantages and disadvantages (enlish is better for distance and raw power, Saracen is better for accuracy and consistency of shot impact), and it occurs to me that, given that the Haradrim like to have archers on top of Oliphaunts (where loss of distance might not be of such importance) the increased accuracy might be valued.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In the first age however, it seems like there may have been oliphaunts over much of the world (or how the Hobbits heard of them in the first place) moreover this would have been wild oliphaunts as opposed to the somewhat trained and domesticated ones of the war of the ring.

Hmm...I don't know about that. I don't think the climate of northern Middle earth would ever have been particularly well suited to them...at least through the time periods described to us.

Speaking of Haradrim and thier weaponry, and opnion question. Given that, in some ways, the People of Near Harad are supposed to be vaguely reminiscent of out North Africa and Middle East, do you think they are supposed to use the so called "Saracen Draw" with thier archery (using your thumb to draw back the bowstring, rather than the first two fingers as in the "English Draw". From what I understand each has thier advantages and disadvantages (enlish is better for distance and raw power, Saracen is better for accuracy and consistency of shot impact), and it occurs to me that, given that the Haradrim like to have archers on top of Oliphaunts (where loss of distance might not be of such importance) the increased accuracy might be valued.

I had never thought of that but it seems plausible.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Hmm...I don't know about that. I don't think the climate of northern Middle earth would ever have been particularly well suited to them...at least through the time periods described to us.

Evolution is everything... maybe oliphaunts used to be mammoths one day, and having migrated south for whatever reason they shed their fur...

[Kuruharan]

I would agree except Middle earth is not described to us as a world where evolution takes place.

[Alfirin]

[QUOTE=Kuruharan;653767]Hmm...I don't know about that. I don't think the climate of northern Middle earth would ever have been particularly well suited to them...at least through the time periods described to us.
QUOTE]

I'm not saying that POV is incorrect, all I want to point out is that the Hobbits must have heard of Oliphaunts from SOMEWHERE for the poem to exist, and if they never existed further North than the landmass of Far Harad this would seem unlikely (I sort of get the impression that travel between the North and the South of ME was NEVER all that common and that Near and Far Harad and the lands beyond have always been sort of terra incognita to the north). I suppose that some proto hobbit could have heard of oliphaunts from an elf who had seen them in Valinor (or had him or herself heard of them from one who did) where they supposedy are also (as per that whole "Ivory in Gondolin Argument".) but this seems tenous. And the theory that the connection between the real life Oliphaunts and the ones in the Hobbit poem is purely coincidental (i.e. that the Hobbits happened to create a made up creature that matched up exactly to a real life one.) seems to fly against the Tolkein ethos.
I will also point out the climate might not be as big an impediment as it seems on the surface. Our modern day elephants actually used to range far further north than they do now. And if you factor in such things as Mammoths (and not just the wooly kind, also things like the less hairy Colombian Mammoth) and Mastodons you have an orginal range that streches all the way to near the artic circle. Some the Greek islands had thier own, tiny version of elephant or mastodon (whose skulls whne found were thought to be the orgin for the legend of the Cyclops) It's really not all that different from the fact that in bibical times, there were lions to be found throughout a lot of southern europe and the middle east and out to India (where there still are some) and bits of Indonesia (Or how Singapore "city of the lion" got it's name, when the first people arrived there, there were lions). And africa still has a kind of elephant in the North that likes forests over grassy plains (and was recently declared a seperate species). I see no real climate problem with elephants in the north of Middle Earth.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

(I sort of get the impression that travel between the North and the South of ME was NEVER all that common and that Near and Far Harad and the lands beyond have always been sort of terra incognita to the north).

To some extent yes, but don't forget Gondor had holdings in Harad (specifically Umbar which seems to have been a major hub in the south) for years and years and stories of oliphants could have crept north by that route, via their relatives in Arnor, and survived as a sort of folk legend among the hobbits.

Dwarves were another widely traveled folk and while we don't commonly associate them with the south we don't know where in the east the other dwarven kingdoms were. A southeastern location for one of them is as good a guess as any and commerce with their relatives might have brought all sorts of stories to the northwestern regions of Middle earth.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Dwarves were another widely traveled folk and while we don't commonly associate them with the south we don't know where in the east the other dwarven kingdoms were. A southeastern location for one of them is as good a guess as any and commerce with their relatives might have brought all sorts of stories to the northwestern regions of Middle earth.

Actually that latter theory would explain another (at least to me) interesting point, the name Mumakul. If you say it out loud it does sound a lot more(or at least, equally validly) like a word in Kuzdul than a word in either Quenya or Sindarin. I don't have an elvish disctonary next to me (so I don't know if there is a Quenya or Sindarin root involved there) Im just saying the word sounds sort of Dwarvish. Maybe, if it was southfaring dwarves who first brought the stories back, the elves, having no previos name or at least knowing no previous one (just because there were supposedly ones in Valinor does not mean they were common enough for the average elf (especially ME born ones) to be familiar enough to know it's "old name" if it had one.) adopted the Dwarvish one as thier own. It could of course, equally validly be a word, in Haradrian. We never hear anyone from Harad speak, so who knows what family thier native tounges beling to (though Khamul, who is supposed to be and Easterling does have a name that sounds like it could be from the same linguistic family, so if Khamul was actually the name he was born with (or at least, one he got while he still was an Eastling, there might be a clue there.)

[Kuruharan]

A brilliant suggestion.

According to this excellent page Adûnaic owed much to dwarven language so I see no reason why southern languages might not as well.

[Rumil]

Interesting thought on 'mumakil',

could it perhaps be Adunaic as used by the Black Numenoreans?

I don't think the hobbit stories of oliphants necessarily mean wooly mammoths on the Tower Hills, though I do sort of like the idea, maybe confined to the far North and hunted by the snowmen of Forochel?

The 'chain' might be another explanation, like for trade goods. For example Bilbo's coffee beans might be grown in Ithilien, traded to Minas Tirith, then Rohan, Isengard, up the Greenway to Bree then to the Shire. Nobody actually travels all the way but the goods get passed along the chain. (An inverse Denethor's umbrella for those that remember the thread!). Likewise stories get passed from person to person and can travel further than the individuals

How about the oliphant description starting in Harad, the men of Khand see the oliphants while serving under Sauron, tell the Easterlings about this impressive beast, who mention it while collecting tribute from the Dorwinrim, who pass the story on the the men of Laketown, who tell the Wood-elves, who compose several poems, lays and theatrical performances on the subject, impressing a visiting elf from Rivendell, who recites his favourite back at home in company with the Rangers, one of whom recounts the amusing story at the Prancing Pony, where it's heard by a visiting Took, who relates this in the Green Dragon, and in five minutes half the Shire has heard of oliphants.

Of course the description might not be terribly accurate by the time it reaches Hobbiton, a bit like Chinese whispers.