Where were the `Blades of Westernesse` forged? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Cirdan · 03-08-2011, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telchar

I stumpled on this old tread, and just wondered why nobody mentions the contradiction in:

So passed the the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse (Westernesse is westron for Numenor) <u>with</u> ...who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young

Any comments?

Yes, that sentence caught my eye recently when rereading this chapter (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields). Let's look at the full quote:

Quote:

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

This little sword was possibly enchanted to give a nice attack bonus against Nazgul!

What did Tolkien mean by "young"? Clearly the weapon was not forged at the founding of Numenor when the Dunedain were truly young, nor was it made at the founding of Arnor 1400 years before Angmar. Is this a mistake or some kind of convolution of ideas improperly expressed? Hard to believe the meticulous JRR would have done so.

Another interesting question arises about this blade from the Minas Tirith chapter:

Quote:

"‘Give me the weapon!’ he said.
Pippin lifted it and presented the hilt to him. ‘Whence came this?’ said Denethor. ‘Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past?’
‘It came out of the mounds that lie on the borders of my country ‘ said Pippin. "

If the North-kingdom perished more than 1000 years beforehand (and was sundered from Gondor even earlier -with the brief exception of Firiel's marriage to Arvedui), then how is it that Denethor recognized this blade as an Arnorian relic?

Morthoron · 03-08-2011, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirdan

If the North-kingdom perished more than 1000 years beforehand (and was sundered from Gondor even earlier -with the brief exception of Firiel's marriage to Arvedui), then how is it that Denethor recognized this blade as an Arnorian relic?

If it were wound with spells, the handle and the blade itself most certainly would have runes on it, possibly in Adûnaic. Denethor was enough of a scholar to detect an ancient variant of Gondorion writing.

Inziladun · 03-09-2011, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirdan

What did Tolkien mean by "young"? Clearly the weapon was not forged at the founding of Numenor when the Dunedain were truly young, nor was it made at the founding of Arnor 1400 years before Angmar. Is this a mistake or some kind of convolution of ideas improperly expressed? Hard to believe the meticulous JRR would have done so.

I think "young" was only a relative term there, in comparison with the Dúnedain of the year 3019, when the sword was destroyed.

Mithalwen · 03-09-2011, 07:56 AM

I agree with Inzil that young is relative and means more when they were still vigourous and numerous rather than the nearly spent force of the War of the Ring. Also as Morth points out Denethor was a scholar, a master of lore. Even though peoples fade and kingdoms fail their artefacts often survive one way or another. Some may well have made their way to Gondor and ended up in the treasure houses of Minas Tirith which of course the steward would have access to. Valuable stuff manages to travel even in ancient times. Also since Gondor and Arnor had shared origins their style of craft were likely to show their shared origins even if their paths diverged.

Cirdan · 03-09-2011, 03:44 PM

Good answers!

Perhaps there was a "Museum of Westernesse" in Minas Tirith, or even more likely one in the vastly-ancient Pelargir.

It may also be that while Arnor was at war within itself and with Angmar, some Dunedain families may have emigrated south to the relative "safety" of Gondor, bringing their crafts with them.

The idea of anti-Angmar runes in Adunaic legible to Denethor seems the most likely explanation for his recognition of the blade.

03-09-2011, 07:56 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	I agree with Inzil that young is relative and means more when they were still vigourous and numerous rather than the nearly spent force of the War of the Ring. Also as Morth points out Denethor was a scholar, a master of lore. Even though peoples fade and kingdoms fail their artefacts often survive one way or another. Some may well have made their way to Gondor and ended up in the treasure houses of Minas Tirith which of course the steward would have access to. Valuable stuff manages to travel even in ancient times. Also since Gondor and Arnor had shared origins their style of craft were likely to show their shared origins even if their paths diverged. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

03-09-2011, 03:44 PM	#5
Cirdan Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: In the Tower of Elostirion with my new Palantir Posts: 33	Good answers! Perhaps there was a "Museum of Westernesse" in Minas Tirith, or even more likely one in the vastly-ancient Pelargir. It may also be that while Arnor was at war within itself and with Angmar, some Dunedain families may have emigrated south to the relative "safety" of Gondor, bringing their crafts with them. The idea of anti-Angmar runes in Adunaic legible to Denethor seems the most likely explanation for his recognition of the blade.