A Measure of Success

[Nogrod]

Uhh... *Parrots Mark*

[Formendacil]

Okay, we seem to be degenerating a little bit into unintentional ad hominems, and perhaps a little bit away from consideration of the rules. If I may play the nosey peacemaker, we seem to be getting a little off-course, and for all that Mithalwen is interpreting Bêthberry as advocating that inn players "stumble around in the dark," I think it's otherwise clear that neither is calling for the removal of character bios entirely. Rather, Mith is emphasizing the importance of the structure that bios provide to new players, and I think she's quite right that new players (and I mean people who haven't RPed before rather than people new to the Inn or providing new characters) want structure. Structure and rules make things make sense, and its usually when understanding the structure of something that newcomers feel safe to join in.

At the same time, however, Bêthberry is highlighting an important aspect of the Inns, which is contingent on their very nature as never-ending inns--namely the intentionally transient nature of those who are not innkeepers and the improvisational character this lends to any "story/plot" that might actually take place there. If I may play on her point that Inns are a horse of a different colour from RPs here generally, we need to be careful to keep the Inns and other RPs distinct when speaking about them--even if we decide on new/different rules for RPs generally, we still need to consider the Inns separately, since they provide a different function. However, taking Mithalwen's point, they ARE major points of entry for new players dipping their feet in the world of Downsian RPing, and I think her (their) concern for structure is important.

Okay, having possibly misrepresented everyone's point of view, may I ask the community to direct their ire towards me, and meanwhile get back to the (highly pertinent) question of structure that Mithadan is pushing us towards.

I've already given a fairly extensive proposal about how the RP forums could be revised, and there was some debate about that. While I hardly think my proposal is without flaws, I'd like to think that the response from those who engaged with it directly suggested that it had some merit. In particular, pretty much everyone seemed to agree that two gaming forums would be better than the current three, and that two would be preferable to consolidating them into one. My suggestion was to divide them between highly structured/strong owner control on the one hand and looser structure/less owner control on the other, which required some clarification. Still, once clarified it doesn't seem too hated, but the big question is: if you want two forums, how is one to distinguish between them? Is it to be acknowledged skill, as between the current forums (a system that most of us seem to feel has passed its time)? Is it to be along game-structure lines, as I'm proposing? Or what?

Or, if you think we just need one forum... well, you should speak up. While I like talking, I don't think mine's the only opinion that needs hearing.

Perhaps people could respond yea or nay (with explanations! Please! Think of it as a chance to use that finely honed WWian rhetoric) to the following questions:

1. Do you think the Downs should move to having 2 forums?
(If no, how many?)

2. Should game proposals be run by the Mods first?
If yes, to what extent?

3. Should we have (a)sub-forum(s) for brainstorming/discussion?



These are the biggest structural questions I'm seeing at the moment... there are probably more (if so, add them to list when you reply!). In addition to these yes/no questions, I can think of the following discussion questions:

Should the Inns continue in the future in their current form?

Should games be deleted/moved/closed after inactivity? After how much inactivity?

[Formendacil]

To set a good example, and maybe even to get the ball rolling, here are *my* answers to the questions--though I imagine you could guess at them already.

1. Do you think the Downs should move to having 2 forums?
(If no, how many?)
Yes. Obviously, I've already proposed a 2 forum model, and I think it has potential. I'm more than open to distinguishing between the two using different criteria than I suggested, though.

2. Should game proposals be run by the Mods first?
If yes, to what extent?
Yes. I still think it's helpful and can avoid embarassment (and given that most of us run ideas by our RPing buddies anyway, I don't think it's that hard to give the Friendly Neighbourhood Mod a shout either)... but I also think it should be a given that Mods will default towards approval rather than not. I also think it should be clarified that the Mod giving the green light doesn't mean the game will survive--but, as a corollary to that, the Mod should never turn down a proposal just because there are too many games in play. In my opinion, natural selection will take care of them.

3. Should we have (a)sub-forum(s) for brainstorming/discussion?

Yes. I think it's excellent idea, and possibly negates the necessity of running things by the Mod first (though it doesn't obviate the possibility of that being a good idea). I also think it will help keep less "involved" RPers (those who aren't hardcore, major character types, but may only want or have time for supporting roles here and there) involved regularly.

Should the Inns continue in the future in their current form?
With regard to the Scarburg Meadhall, I think it could easily survive as is. As a last-generation RPer to have set foot in the Green Dragon, I admit to not following the Golden Perch, so I really am not qualified to speak there. However, it stands to reason that two forums means room for two inns, and that one may be more "rookie friendly," so we certainly have room for two.

As for the Seventh Star, I think there's merit in what mark suggested, vis-a-vis turning it into a thinly-veiled RP version of the "Coming of Age" thread, both in terms of actually moving along a steady, if stately, pace, and in terms of fun reading. I also don't think it would be a problem to thus end up with two Inns in one forum--or even all three in one forum (I'd put them in my "Rivendell" forum, to keep using that model).

Should games be deleted/moved/closed after inactivity? After how much inactivity?

Personally, I think a month of *no* activity should be enough to merit a Mod posting on the thread with a "Question mark, people?" post, and that if another month went by (with no more progression) it could be moved to Elvenhome (which I assume throughout that we are retaining).

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by mark

...that is not the statement of a man obsessed with power

And that is not the statement I quoted. I thanked Mithadan more than once for opening up to/taking part in this discussion. I really do appreciate that. But his attitude as it *seems to me* is that of 'you may amuse me for the time being' or 'you're on the chopping block now -- you started it, you better finish it right.' (And by this I don't mean me personally. I didn't take it *personally*; it seems directed at everyone.) I understand that no one, admin or mod, as to change anything or even listen to complaints. But I thought he was being antagonistic to the members involved and not just the discussion. I'm sorry, I just wanted a discussion, too. Apparently I'm the only one who's reading things that way, I guess I'm crazy. Which is usually quite possible. (Some edits here to clarify, maybe?)

So some of the questions I haven't answered (if that's how we're going to do it)

One thing I would like to see is a requirement that a member participate in at least a game or two here before he or she can open a game on their own.

A game, maybe. The problem is that's something that's easier to grandfather in once you have a bunch of players. We don't really have a bunch.

It strikes me that retaining "veto" power would be more potentially embarrassing and annoying to a game facilitator/owner than some sort of simplified proposal process.

That depends on if the role of the moderator will be to determine if a game breaks the RULES, or if it will also be their role to determine if the game is "good enough" based on whatever standards. If someone breaks the rules, they get contacted and things get deleted/edited/whatever else. That's how it works on every other forum.

Do we set a limit on numbers of games running, at least until we understand how many gamers we have or do we trust the members to hash things out and if so how will this happen?

I don't see the need. If you need to have rules and guidelines to babysit everyone, to make sure they don't overextend themselves...well that's going to be a lot of rules. Maybe put suggestions in the rules that players not participate in too many games at once. And encourage new players to join active games -- which means of course making it easy for games to be joined. That's really the big problem with the 'game' system rather than an open world setup (which granted only really seems to work when it's a forum dedicated entirely to RP)...it's hard to make it easy for new people to just jump in at any time.

And do we want Mod approval before starting a game or not? If a proposal is being discussed openly in a forum, realistically, how much extra work is it for someone to send PIO or whoever a PM and say "Take a look at this..."

I think it's funny that everyone's taken the "let people start their own games" and turned it into a group approval process. A game is posted. People decide whether or not they are interested, and if so, they join and/or discuss ideas with the game initiator. If the game breaks any rules, it gets removed. That's how I see it. It's not about approval or not. The game is started; if there's something wrong with it, the mod(s) step in as necessary.

And Form's questions...

1. Do you think the Downs should move to having 2 forums? (If no, how many?)

One RP forum, one discussion forum.

2. Should game proposals be run by the Mods first? (If yes, to what extent?)

Nah. Why not moderate on the front end rather than the back end.

3. Should we have (a)sub-forum(s) for brainstorming/discussion?

See #1.

Should the Inns continue in the future in their current form?

Well there's no reason to get rid of them, but we need new inns/the inns to change to be more welcoming to newcomers. They (or it) need(s) to be less plot-oriented.

Should games be deleted/moved/closed after inactivity? After how much inactivity?

Certainly. After a few months? I dunno.

[Mithadan]

I apparently have been less than clear in my intentions. All I want is to improve a forum that has become somewhat run down and shabby. I do not want to dictate from above and certainly am not taking a "this is not a democracy" approach.

Peace out, all. Let's return to being constructive please, so we can bring this bird in for a landing soon...

[piosenniel]

1.) Do you think the Downs should move to having 2 forums? (If no, how many?)

~*~ No ~*~

I can see the RPG Forum as 3 fora.

• The first would be the section where the Thread for general posting guidelines would be put; The Resource Threads from the present Shire and Rohan; the linked indexes for all the old games played in the Shire, Rohan, Gondor, and the new linked index for this new Forum incarnation. Any general announcements that need to be made could also be posted here.
  
  
• The second fora would be the section for any brainstorming/planning threads for new games would go up.
  
  
• The final fora would be the section where the RPG’s and their game-in-play discussion threads would be. I don’t think there needs to be a separation of different sorts of games. This is also where the 2 Inns and their Discussion threads would be – it might be nice to sticky the Inns and their discussion threads to the top of this fora.

2.) Should game proposals be run by the Mods first? If yes, to what extent?

I don’t know what form these proposals are going to take. I suppose if someone had a premise for a game (s)he wasn’t quite sure about, then they could run it past the Moderators first by PM. But, I think if the premise is put out on the brainstorming/planning thread, the Moderators could read along and make suggestions as needed either on the thread, or by PM depending on the tenor of the suggestion(s).

3.) Should we have (a)sub-forum(s) for brainstorming/discussion?

See #1

4.) Should the Inns continue in the future in their current form?

I don’t think we need to change the form of the Scarburg Meadhall. It might be nice, if the Meadhall and the other Inn are moved into the same fora as suggested above, for the Meadhall players to occasionally look into the other Inn and perhaps encourage/mentor a promising player to try their writing skills in the Meadhall.

I think the present Golden Perch Inn works fine as it is. There’s no ongoing plot. Players wander in and out with their characters, interact with other characters, drink, laugh, brood at a corner table . . . We could certainly move to the very abbreviated Character Sketch. I find new players like to think about their characters and get a good grip on them by writing them down. But I’m sure we could come up with a new Inn if that’s the consensus. And one more free-wheeling. Folwren is the Innkeeper at present in the Perch and has agreed to remodel the Perch or open a different sort of Inn as needed.

5.) Should games be deleted/moved/closed after inactivity? After how much inactivity?

Before being closed and moved to Elvenhome (I can’t wrap my mind around actually deleting a game – it just seems wrong.) the gamers should be put on notice that their game has ground to a halt and needs to be restarted. I think 4 weeks of inactivity is long enough to warrant a prod from the Moderators. Gamers can then use the game discussion thread to make some plan to get back on track. In the present Forum structure these periods of inactivity, discussion, and restarts often occur more than 2 or 3 times during the course of a game.

If a game has received a nudge from the Moderators and continues to be inactive for another 4 weeks, then I think it and its discussion thread can be moved to Elvenhome.

Any game in Elvenhome can be resurrected and returned to play if there is enough interest by game facilitator and game players. Though, so far, I haven’t had anyone ask to have the game returned for play.

[Boromir88]

1. Do you think the Downs should move to having 2 forums? (If no, how many?)

No. I think there are reasons to have 3.

My thinking was a little different from pio's and that was to have 1 forum for planning/brain-storming/ideas to help members write and construct characters. Then the "Doriath"forum and "Rivendell" forum.

Although, I think I like pio's idea better. At this point with members and RPGers slowing, there really is no reason to have two separate forums for games. Even if the games will vary between "lesser-control" and "more-control" this is something that should be explained in the planning/discussion threads by the game creator. Then gamers can figure out there whether that is there preferred RPG or not. (Also, there would be no more ground for claiming the system is elitist, with one forum for games of all varities )

2.) Should game proposals be run by the Mods first? If yes, to what extent?

As has been mentioned the planning/brainstorming threads would sort of make "running" a proposal past the forum moderator a formality. I don't know how many would spam pio's PM box with proposals, but if there's a planning/brainstorming forum, the Mods can add their input in the planning threads, as well as any other members. If a proposal is getting hammered out, and developed the game creator and all it's members, I don't see why we'd have to go through the formality of getting a Mod stamp of approval? That's adding unnecessary bureaucracy.


3.) Should we have (a)sub-forum(s) for brainstorming/discussion?

See #1

4.) Should the Inns continue in the future in their current form?

I'm not so much of an inn player. I've tried it once, and due to personal reasons just stopped posting for the character I had created. I wasn't sure how the structure of the Inns worked and whether I could just be like..."ok scrapping this character and I'm a gonna create another one here!" So, that's my winded answer to say, I'll leave the planning of the Inns to those who are, and will, participate more frequently in them.

5.) Should games be deleted/moved/closed after inactivity? After how much inactivity?

I think pio's answer sounds good.