Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Boromir88]

Gotta be heading out, will be gone until late late Saturday.

++the phantom

If you really our innocent, my apologies bud, as it means I've allowed myself to be completely manipulated by the wolves this game. Although, I find it hard to believe that an innocent phantom would be at the center of all this confusion.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Ang

I don't like his immediate if typical attempt to claim the Day's direction and steer it towards Elron, a vulnerable, easy-to-lynch candidate whom he knows many people (me for instance) vaguely suspect.

So I'm steering, eh? What, because I said what everyone is thinking regarding yesterday, and requested that Daughter speak on her behalf to explain that nonsense at the end?

Please, please, forgive me Ang. Next time I'm the only person around at the beginning of a Day I will keep my mouth shut, because goodness knows that being present early in the day is a clear attempt at manipulating the day's conversation rather than a result of the deadline time set by the moderator.

Originally Posted by Ang

Another thing we should consider is that Mith was almost certainly the object of last night's protection. Let's just hope she wasn't also the protector

She wasn't Glorfy.

Originally Posted by Ang

But I must admit I lean towards advising Glorfindel to come out, really.

No, no, don't say that! Anyone who says that must be evil! Or at least that's what Boro thought yesterday.

Originally Posted by Boro

And now that I'm on this subject, don't you find that business between Nog and phantom a bit too clean? Nog sets the noose around his own neck, and phantom starts proclaiming he knew what Nog was going to do, after the previous day defending Nog.

I DID know he was setting up for a false reveal. I mean, come on- if you read his posts Day 2 as they progress it's quite obvious he was building to something, and his clear-cut comment about changing his mind regarding me... I never did think he was a Wolf, but then as it began to look obvious he was setting up for a reveal, I looked at what he had been hinting (me = Cobbler) and realized that he was surely a Cobbler, but to give him the benefit of the doubt as a non-Wolf I wasn't going to jump the gun on him just in case he was attempting any sort of bluff or ploy and refrained from a reveal after all.

But yes, I even hinted openly that I knew where he was headed. In one post I said something along the lines of, "I wonder if Nog will make my decision easier by doing some sort of false reveal" and then directly before his reveal (after reading the post before it) I said something like "That set-up sounds mighty suspicious. *waits for Nog* "

Originally Posted by Boro

now is as good of a time as any for Glorfy to step out.

Ha ha ha! Yesterday saying such a thing was evil, but today it's okay.

By the way, I'm going to take this opportunity to stick my tongue out at you and point out that you are now following in my footsteps.
Step 1: Claim Phantom is bad for doing what he does.
Step 2: Do what Phantom does.

Originally Posted by Boro

but I've basically come to the conclusion that I think the double-lynch of Lommy and Nessa had wolf paws all over it

Yeah, we planned the whole thing, because of course I am so incredibly brilliant that before that day started I knew precisely who our two candidates would be, and also knew which of us would have the double-vote, and knew which people wouldn't show up at the deadline to vote (e.g. Shasta).

You know, really, I'm not even going to fight that accusation, as for anyone to believe it they would have to believe that I'm just flippin out of sight genius. Which I am, of course, but it gives me pleasure to see other people buy into it. So yeah... Grrr... Lottie and I hatched that plot. And then the next night we hatched a plot in which I would analyze her and make her look really bad and try and fan the flames of a Lottie-lynching mob, with the understanding she would run in late and act like a Cobbler causing everyone to change their votes last minute. But of course if that was the plan, it kind of failed. So... um.... maybe I won't take credit for being a Phantom-Lottie pack.

Anyway, congrats to Boro and Ang for turning things on me so that some completely ridiculous under-radar team like Daughter-Sally can waltz to a Wolf victory.

I've got to go to class now. In a fine mood.

[A Little Green]

I know our numbers have dwindled and all, and that of all people I'm not the one who has any business complaining about it being quiet, but still the silence unnerves me. I'm going to need to do some serious rethinking now, probably looking at the votes from the past Days and see what actually happened. It's all a blur in my head at the moment.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Please, please, forgive me Ang. Next time I'm the only person around at the beginning of a Day I will keep my mouth shut, because goodness knows that being present early in the day is a clear attempt at manipulating the day's conversation rather than a result of the deadline time set by the moderator...

She wasn't Glorfy...


Anyway, congrats to Boro and Ang for turning things on me so that some completely ridiculous under-radar team like Daughter-Sally can waltz to a Wolf victory.

phantom, your first statement doesn't address my substance - that an accusation of Elrond's Daughter at this stage looks like a very easy course.

Your second is rather provocative. You're saying, according to your personal angle on things and sense of Mith's style, she's unlikely to have been Glorfindel? That, also, is my impression. But there's no need to give the impression that your supposition is a certainty

Your third point is unworthy of you; you won't win my trust by throwing around blame in that childish tone. We ought to work together. If we are actually both innocent then this is intensely frustrating. But that's not the way to convince me

It's also odd in that you imply you don't think Boro or I are wolves. You've been consistently, up till now, friendly and on my side (one reason I think you need more scrutiny), but hitherto you certainly suspected Boro. Even more oddly, you haven't hitherto suspected Sally in any emphatic way...

[Glirdan]

Hi all, sorry for the lack of posting (read Admin thread for reasons why).

Originally Posted by Angu

As in WW I itself, our "two luminaries", phantom and Boro, the great statistical plotters, are at war. It is very unlikely that both are guilty. At the moment I would also say that neither are wolves, and that phantom is, after all, a Cobbler.

I'm definitely inclined to agree with this sentiment. Both are going after each other too strongly for it to be a Wolf on Wolf. However, I'm not sure if I agree with phantom being a Cobbler. I'm not saying he's looking innocent but I'm also not saying that Boro is looking guilty. I think they're both looking mighty guilty.

However, with Legate being revealed as a known Cobbler and Nog being another (well, that's the original assumption at least), it's doubtful that both our guilty (aka. Wolf vs. Cobbler). I'm not sure which I see as more guilty though. Both have had made their very valid points and have helped the village. And yet, both have been trying to steer the village in a specific direction to suit their needs. I wish I could look over both of them more thoroughly, yet due to RL reasons (aka. personal issues and work), my time on the internet toDay is rather limited. I may end up having to do what I did yesterDay and base my vote off of who looks guilty from toDay.

Originally Posted by Angu

Which means we cannot dismiss that aboriginal question. Was Nogrod telling the truth?

This is a very valid question, one I think we should look into in case it hasn't been done. Yet, because of Agan's trap and his lack of response to it, I'm still more inclined to believe that he was a Cobbler.

So here's my question to all of you. Instead of having Lottie checked toNight, should we have the Dead check Noggins?

Originally Posted by Angu

Can I just reassure the Moddess, though, who seems to worry that this game isn't working in the admin thread, that in its traumatic, stressful, fiendish way it is very exciting indeed, and I at least am glad I participated.

I am in utter agreement my dear Moddess, even with the stress of RL right now, I find this to be one of the most exciting games I've played in and I am quite glad I joined.

I feel I rather agree with Boro on this statement in regards to phantom

but not seem particularly bothered by the double-lynch that he and Lottie did?

I did think it was strange, especially seeing as he apparently "detests" double lynches. Yet he did nothing to stop it either and the next day had no...shall we say remorse?...about it. If I recall correctly, he even said that he was quite happy with that outcome. And a double lynch in a game like this is the perfect place for a Wolf to get rid of players that they feel are threatening to them, and he had it out for Lommy from the get go.

However, we can't base much off of that double lynch seeing as those were the only two candidates up for lynching, other then Agan's and Wilwa's votes for Boro, both of whom are known innocents.

Originally Posted by phantom

She wasn't Glorfy.

How can you be so sure?

Hmmm...I don't know what to make of this whole mess right now....Either way, Boro and phantom are confusing me beyond belief. The only credit I can really give to Boro at this point is following through with his vote on phantom

As for this Sally and Elra debate that phantom has stirred up....I'm not sure what to make of either of them. Both of them have been breezing along by quite unscathed with a few short posts here and there. It is quite possible that one of them, if Nessa is not, is a Wolf in hiding. Personally, I don't see a Sallywolf pulling this kind of tactic. She's been around far too long to pull that kind of newbie tactic. Which is why, of the two, I'm more inclined to believe that Elra would be a Wolf and Sally innocent.

I'm now feeling a little more comfortable with Angu. Out of the main speakers (aka. him, Boro and phantom) he's the only one who's not trying to steer the village in any way whatsoever. It is quite possible that he is the remaining Cobbler (if there are any left that is) or just a very confused innocent. All of his posts toDay have been clear, concise and made sense, none of which have come across as Wolvish. However, I am still uneasy about him due to his posts yesterDay (see my vote post for further reasons as to why). I'm really not sure what to make of him at all.

Okay, that is all for now. I'll be back in a little while to check up.

EDIT: Xed with Angu

[Anguirel]

Not that aren't actually things that make me uneasy about Boro's tone. It's permeated with resignation we could do without at this relatively critical stage...

"If the person's a cobbler, and we lose, so be it."

"This part is probably far-fetched, but I've basically come to the conclusion that I think the double-lynch of Lommy and Nessa had wolf paws all over it."

(as in, he doesn't really believe in the validity of his own accusation that the double-lynch was orchestrated by wolves. And neither do I)

"If you really our innocent, my apologies bud, as it means I've allowed myself to be completely manipulated by the wolves this game. Although, I find it hard to believe that an innocent phantom would be at the center of all this confusion."

a patina of fallacy, though it could well be unintentional. More resignation and despair that is unlike him; then a sentence that makes little sense; phantom is always a controversial and suspicious player whether innocent or guilty.

Nerwen and I have both said we think one or the other is guilty...what if neither is. I've seen bigger farces. Certainly I think we can rule out both of them being wolves!

We probably still have a hunter, too. If s/he and Glorfindel reveal there will be a flurry of reaction and maybe some rival claimants, but I think in shifting the terms of debate this would actually be helpful. After all, a revealed hunter can look after themselves to an extent; wolves late in the game are very cautious about attacking them. I've known hunters be very useful out in the open...

so, all in all, I think sally, while personally suspicious to me for reasons of self defence, is only likely to be a wolf if all three are still on their paws.

Or if her Nessa vote was late in the day and served the purpose of camouflage. I'll just check on that and then continue where I left off...

[Anguirel]

sally's was the fourth vote for Nessa; risky though not utterly inconceivable for a very bold fellow-wolf, especially if an ally (phantom?) was expected to sort things out in favour of Thinlomien's death

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I'm definitely inclined to agree with this sentiment. Both are going after each other too strongly for it to be a Wolf on Wolf. However, I'm not sure if I agree with phantom being a Cobbler. I'm not saying he's looking innocent but I'm also not saying that Boro is looking guilty. I think they're both looking mighty guilty....

So here's my question to all of you. Instead of having Lottie checked toNight, should we have the Dead check Noggins?

I'm now feeling a little more comfortable with Angu. Out of the main speakers (aka. him, Boro and phantom) he's the only one who's not trying to steer the village in any way whatsoever. It is quite possible that he is the remaining Cobbler (if there are any left that is) or just a very confused innocent. All of his posts toDay have been clear, concise and made sense, none of which have come across as Wolvish. However, I am still uneasy about him due to his posts yesterDay (see my vote post for further reasons as to why). I'm really not sure what to make of him at all.

argh Glirdan that first paragraph is really confusing. Which I suppose is fair enough, given the confusion surrounding that particular duel, but still. It's like a particularly mad poem

no no no, check Loslote not Nogrod, Dead (though at this rate we might not last long enough to get the results of your inquisition...). Whatever Nogrod is he's very unlikely to be a wolf because of the planted Seer hint (though I thought he was a wolf, optimistically, when I voted him down). If he's a Cobbler, we won't learn anything. Loslote might well be a wolf and we really need to find out.

finally, Glirdan, thankyou, that's very nice of you. I imagine phantom will scornfully answer that on the contrary I am trying to steer the camp towards hanging him, but you're right to see I don't feel that simply about things.

[Anguirel]

OK. A curse on my tentative appeal to people power. I'm out to supper in a minute, and I want the conversation to be more eventful when I do so. I shall try to encourage that process now.

Allow me to remove this brooding, dark red Feanorian toupee I've been wearing, and reveal my long, flowing, golden hair.

Ai na vedui Dunadan! Mae govannen!

I would appreciate the help of my hunting comrade. We may then properly assess their claim, among other things.

I defended the Grey Queen for as long as was within my power, and yet mourn her fall more bitterly than tongue can sing. (I did occasionally worry that Mith would think I was patronising for being so sure of her innocence, but fortunately our traditional friendship ensured there was little very odd about it.)

Oh and, finally, no more of this Angu nonsense. My name is Glorfindel, Lord of the House of the Golden Flower. Some people like to call me "The Beloved", though obviously I'm really modest and that totally makes me feel shy.

OK. Get debating, dowdy folk of Aegnor...

[A Little Green]

DAY 1 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, known cobbler underlined, living players bolded. Quotations on the reasoning behind the vote included, comments in brackets mine. Actual conclusions and such to come once I've posted the votes from all the Days and had a look at the big picture, if something such exists.

Lommy – Manwe
"He's been around and apparently able to talk but all he's said this far is banter. That does not look good in my books, no precious, not at all. Not that this is much to go on with!"

Legate – Nessa
"Of all the submarines, except for Mith (who now started posting), the one whose post was giving odd vibes to me."

Greenie – Lommy
"since she's the best lead I have. Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil. This time, on the other hand, she seems quite off to me. Nervous, playing easily, and over-emphasizing stuff (the cobbler paranoia, for example)."

Shasta – Nog
"Alright, after a quick read, the two I find most off are...

Phantom (surprise surprise) and Nogrod. Both seem, to me, to be trying to tell the wolves/cobblers what to do"

"I thought about voting Phantom, but his defense seemed reasonable enough - whereas Nogrod just seemed to latch on and say "Yeah, what he said!""

Agan – Nog (2)
"I agree with Shasta about Nog being suspicious"
(there probably were actual points against Nog in her earlier posts, but I didn't feel like taking the trouble to find them seeing as it's really not that relevant)

Nog – Shasta
"He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest."

Manwe – Greenie
"three posts before voting, general, casts a number of doubts. backing, moderate or poor."

Elra – Nog (3)
"This tension between Nogrod and Shasta worries me somewhat. Hrmmm."
"Partly because Shasta's overreaction makes him seem innocent. And if Nog's not guilty, then he'll be a helpful ghost."

Nessa – Legate
"Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?"

Fea – Nerwen
"Active enough to be useful in the next life, not so active I'll miss her desperately in this one."

Lottie – Manwe (2)
"Now, I'll have to vote and run, so, for his rather worrisome post..."

Boro – Legate (2)
(no reason I could find)

Glirdan – Lommy (2)
"Okay, I think I kind of see everyone's point on her now. She seems a little, wish-washy, for lack of a better word. And her reasoning for her vote for Manwe could just as easily be applied to about five other players, myself included. It seems like it's a throw away vote. But if that's the case, why not just say it's a throw away vote??"

Ang – Manwe (3)
"In contrast Manwe adopted a silent assassin position throughout much of today, then ended up joining the fray in a tone of preemptive snapping that reminded me of lupine false confidence I've seen before. He's much more likely to be wrong than right, but he feels the best I have to go on and less inevitably innocent than Nogrod."

Nerwen – Manwe (4)
(about Lottie pointing out Manwe sitting back and enjoying the fight between Shasta and Nog) "A good pick– he also doesn't appear to be C) actually trying to work out whether either of them is, in fact, a baddie (and in fact voted for Greenie)"
"So, it's Manwe and Nog tied at 3 votes each? Okay, then, that simplifies things–"

Mith – Legate (3)
"Suppose in the cause of residual sanity shouldn't risk a threeway tie and vote for the rather shifty Legate"
"Lommy did say she had a busy day and I don'tlike his trumped up "case" against me."

Phantom – Manwe (5)
"Given my lack of experience with them I have no thoughts on Manwe or Nessa, but given the format (the fact that everyone gets to keep playing) I don't feel at all bad about lynching them in order to save someone I feel better about."

So Manwe 5, Legate 3, Nog 3, Lommy 2, Greenie 1, Nerwen 1, Nessa 1, Shasta 1.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Ang

phantom, your first statement doesn't address my substance - that an accusation of Elrond's Daughter at this stage looks like a very easy course.

Yeah, well, concerning Daughter I'm frankly I little ticked (mostly at myself) that I was prepared to vote for her yesterday and allowed myself to be led towards Lottie. I can't help but think that had I focused my attentions on Daughter things might've gone differently, but instead I dutifully contributed to the lynching of a Cobbler (which is their whole point of existence). Yes, I didn't vote for her, but I definitely was pushing the bus along.

Originally Posted by Ang

Your second is rather provocative. You're saying, according to your personal angle on things and sense of Mith's style, she's unlikely to have been Glorfindel? That, also, is my impression. But there's no need to give the impression that your supposition is a certainty

First question- answer is yes. But as far as certainty, I'm as certain as I can be without being specifically told, seeing as I narrowed the Glorfy/Hunter candidates down to three yesterday.

Originally Posted by Ang

Your third point is unworthy of you; you won't win my trust by throwing around blame in that childish tone. We ought to work together. If we are actually both innocent then this is intensely frustrating. But that's not the way to convince me

Yeah well sorry, I'm not that happy. You see, there's yet another reason I'm frustrated and I don't have the time to do anything about it now and even had I realized it earlier I wouldn't have had time to make much headway.

You see, with roles not being revealed after kills, for the past couple of days I completely and entirely spaced the idea of the Seer being night-killed! Given this game set-up I noted early on that there would be no need for a Seer to do much idea-planting until Lovers and Glorfy were dead, as they could simply send back dreams with them to the living. So, as we haven't lost Glorfy, the Seer could've easily been on sneaky mode, especially if he suffered some bad luck with dreams dying. So it's completely possible the Seer died without giving us much to go on (it could've been Fea or Mith for instance), or in fact they did give us info to go on but I didn't bother looking for it because the Mod never said "The Seer died", if you follow.

Basically I just feel like I'm entirely off kilter due primarily to the fact that I've had roughly half of my usual prep and reading time (compared to what I'm used to), and perhaps growing from that is this emerging sense of paranoia that hearkens back to WW II in which me and the other talkative gentleman enthusiastically killed each other to leave alive an entire pack of quieter ladies, and at this time that's the concept that has taken root in my mind.

That's why I've sort of gone off of Boro a bit. I mean, his suspicion of Lottie mirrored my own, and his willingness to attack me to start the day is a mirror of the urge I had yesterday, and it somehow seems too easy. I mean really, after yesterday suspecting Boro and then perhaps you can say being led towards Lottie incorrectly by him it would seem to be a very good guess that I'd come into today intending to lynch him.

And thus I will not. If I'm going to go down the wrong road it's not going to be because of Wolfish tactics, leaving me alive because I've been wrong. Darn it, if I'm going to just completely lose this contest I'm going to do it my way! At least it won't be said that my reaction was predictable.

(x-post with everything since Glirdan)

[A Little Green]

DAY 2 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, known cobbler underlined, living players bolded. Quotations on the reasoning behind the vote included, comments in brackets mine.

Lommy – Wilwa
"I'm aware this is not the most reasoned of all votes, but call it a gut-feeling. Read her post where she quotes Boro. It's just somehow smug, the tone, she gives the impression that she is slightly less confused than the rest of us, which she would be if she only entered the game after nice Nightly briefing by her pack. Also, the wolves have more reason to enjoy the confusion than us, because after all, their objective is just to slaughter while we really need to watch out for what we're shooting at."

Greenie – Nog
"Nog's reaction to Agan and Shasta being lovers looks fishy, can't pinpoint it but there's something really off in that post."
"Since I figured a Nessa vote would be pretty much a throwaway. A bad premise, but that's it."

Agan – Nog (2)
"I have seen enough. Nog if you're innocent I apologise, but at the moment I can't see that as an option."

Boro – Nog (3)
"Nog didn't address me about my suspicions of him. Notice what he did is say "well if you have a twitter impression, I've got a fb one" (paraphrase). Whatever that means I have no idea. And again instead of addressing me on my suspicions he tries to appeal to the rest of the village that I'm looking bad but he's not willing to get the noose around me yet. Waiting to see if there would be enough support?"
"Nog's now moved to threat alert Godzilla. I see nothing beneficial that can come from the insinuations living players are cheating. That's rather unsporty when there's no proof for it."

Glirdan – Nog (4)
"I'm not sure what I think of this, but somehting about it is not sitting right with me. Just because there appeared to be no last minute rescue-operation doesn't necessarily clear him of having been a Wolf. And looking back, there was the possibility of a wolf rescue mission, of none other then yourself. There were two votes, made by Ang and Nerwen, for Manwe that were made within ten minutes of each other. I doubt both of them are but I feel quite certain that at least one of them could be a Wolf with you. Very tempted to vote for you."

Sally – Boro
"I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote"
"I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie."

Nessa – phantom
"I hate to say it, but I believe Nog. I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to false reveal as a seer at this point, and he seems worked up enough about the Lovers' playing that it strikes me as sincere."

Legate – Nessa
"Hm, brilliant. Now if Nog is bad, this looked rather bad too. And, I mean, even if Nog is telling the truth, once again, it does not make much sense to lynch Cobbler at this point. So I don't see why immediately following and wishing to lynch phantom.

So, in fact, this might bring me even to vote Nessa once again."

Fea – Nog (5)
"I'm just going to push it through. He can yell at me post-game if he really is the seer, but I think his behavior up to and after his reveal screams sinister instead of seer. While I find it logical that a Seer-Nog would dream of Agan and the phantom, it doesn't mesh well with his earlier behavior and it's too easy to see those choices as, "I can say these and nobody has any power to deny it except for the true seer (hahaha!) or the phantom (who nobody believes anyway)!""

Wilwa – Nog (6)
"Actually, I'm getting really tired, so I'm just gonna go for it."

Phantom – Nog (7)
(Not even trying to get a quote here!)

Lottie – Nog (8)
"Because, even if he turns up Cobblerian rather than Wolfish, it's better than an innocent (and I'm sure you can gather which version of 'innocent' I meant)."

Ang – Nog (9)
"oh Nowgli, as the Americans pithily put it, shut up already
I tried but I just couldn't resist a second longer"
(there were arguments here too but really, it's a mess trying to get sensible sum-up quotes on why people wanted to vote Nog after his reveal.)

Mith – Nog (10)
"Well lets hope he is a wolf because (and in the light of events my idea wasn't such a good one as I thought at the time) we are also losing BG for good or ill most like."


EDIT: adding the total tally for the Day: Nog 10, Boro 1, Nessa 1, Phantom 1, Wilwa 1
EDIT2: messed up the boldings and italics.

[the phantom]

So now you finally reveal, Ang? Heh heh... Might as well, considering the Wolves almost certainly knew who you were seeing as the night they attempted to kill Mith the following day you said she was as innocent as anyone in the village, among other things. I mean, it really didn't make any sense for the rest of us not to know who you were when the Wolves had such a keen guess for their purposes.

[Anguirel]

Heh heh indeed. I must say, phantom, you are at your most irritating right now. But also at your most innocent. That last post (by which I mean the really long frustrated one) rang as true as anything I've ever seen you write. Why, it even approached humility.

Now I really must go and eat and drink and be as merry as is prudent

[A Little Green]

DAY 3 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, known cobbler underlined, living players bolded.

Nerwen – Nessa
"Nessa's vote looks the most questionable to me– it has that same air of apologising for itself as her Day One vote; also her earlier post looked an attempt to downplay the suspicicion against him (and indeed, re-direct it)."

Greenie – Lommy
"Because out of my current top suspects Lommy and Nessa, she's the one that I find a less likely innocent. She quite simply isn't herself at all, she's jumpy and nervous and making weird arguments."

Boro – Lommy (2)
"So lemme be more blunt (and if this comes off as condescending I'm sorry now. I'm not insulted by anything you've or anyone else said). You were wrong then, you're still wrong now. Only then I wasn't going to hold it against you, because innocents especially can be wrong, and I thought you were trying to enact some playful Day 1 revenge since the last two times you've been wrong about my role. But now I see you're actually serious and this is worrying me. However you interpret from me saying "I feel good about you, even if you are wrong about me" as me giving you a cobbler hint and thinking you're a wolf, I haven't got a clue. And now you've turned my clear cobbler hint to you, into some kind of hint saying I'm a wolf?

You say I'm fishy? Really? Yet you've completely ignored baseless suspicions that are piling up against me. You don't think that's fishy? You're more thoughtful than this, Lommy. I hope you're a baddie, because I would hope an innocent Lommy wouldn't stand for the snow job against me right now, even if she was honestly suspicious of me for good reasons."

Legate – Nessa (2)
(does not elaborate, so I'm going to assume the reasons are the same as the previous Day)

Lommy – Nessa (3)
"Suspicious stuff Nessa has done, according to the posts I just read:
- is wishy-washy, doesn't really say much, is just merisuing around and acting confused
- wants to deadify helpful people (huh?)
- wants to be grateful dead (we should grant her that, eh? )
- on Day1 votes knee-jerkily AND to deadify someone AND apologises for it"

Sally – Nessa (4)
"She initially struck me as evil, and that impression hasn't changed. Thus, death to her."

Nessa – Lommy (3)
"Because I don't want to die, and she has the closest number of votes. I do, however, feel like the cases against her are quite valid."

Agan – Boro
"Out of him and Lommy, he looks worse. It does look like he was trying to hint at her, and now that she's suspecting him because of it, trying to save his face."

Elra – Lommy (4)
"Because despite her endearing comparison of me to Pooh, she seems (to me, at least) to be playing oddly.

Besides, if it turns out she's innocent, she's one of those "helpful ghost" candidates.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a double-lynch. That would be bad. Ugh."

Mith – Lommy (5)
"For me, well she isn't as I remember her being when innocent but since that feelingy stuff isn't helpful to third party, it always rings alarm bells when people stay stuff which patently isn't true. It isn't plausible that she could have read Shasta's post 411 thoroughly and not been aware of the dead starting to vote. If she had read it and been a suprised innocent then surely she would have checked the rules. Feigning ignorance of the situation is a wolf tactic I ahve encountered before I find it really suspicious, Trying to make it some kind of personal attack is simply evading the issue.

I just can't believe she is on the side of the angels and if a baddie I would say wolf because the cobblers would need Shasta's info for their own ends. The wolves already know who is a wolf,"

Glirdan – Nessa (5)
"She's been very one line posts with no substance and very few thoughts of her own, mainly just tail-coating off everything that other people have said. I don't like it, and it's a tactic used to often by newbie wolves."

Wilwa – Boro (2)
"Even if this won't do much, if I don't vote I'll get modfired tomorrow (since I can't come on next Day). Just copying Agan..."

Phantom – Lommy (6)
"I wish to kill Lommy primarily because of the vibe she gave off with her Day 1 Cobbler pointing/instructions, and it seems to me she's continued to be unable to completely shake off that attitude because (so I think) she's a Wolf and thus finding Cobblers is the only help she can offer. And her comment about how Cobblers would have all sorts of brilliant stuff planned... just the way she said it made me think that it was almost a plea/demand "You'd better have some schemes to help us, Cobblers!"

Plus she's a Penguin."

Lottie – Nessa (6)
"I'm definitely leaning more towards Nessa. There are a lot of points where Lommy strikes me as quite innocent, and none where Nessa does so."

So: Lommy 6, Nessa 6, Boro 2

[A Little Green]

Aaaand DAY 4 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, living players bolded.

Ang – Lottie
"Loslote, on the other hand, calmly, securely and fully "within-universe", is I believe ingratiating herself with someone she knows is innocent. I don't think her less substantive defence of sally, on the other hand, rules them out as allies. It is empty, neither one thing not the other, a mental shrug designed to shake off interest in sally just as a wolf partner might wish."

Greenie – Sally
"I'm finding Sally rather fishy at the moment. Less so if she answers my questions. (Though that depends on the answers actually..) Her Day 2 vote was not given proper reasons for, she's held to that suspect since but still hasn't told why; also, her sudden reluctance at having her dead top suspect's role revealed looks bad to me."

Nerwen – Elra
"for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub."

Sally – Lottie (2)
(not present in person so no reasoning attached)

Lottie – Wilwa
"I'll have to vote a lot sooner than I thought I would, so I'm going to do something rather silly/stupid and go for one of our quieter people. I'm not saying she's a sub - I know she's busy in RL and everything - but I don't have anything better at the moment, so..."

Glirdan – Ang
"Okay, that's it, ten minutes left and I'm going to vote and I'm going to stick with my gut on this one"
"I just feel more strongly about Angu being guilty then the rest of them"

Mith – Lottie (3)
"Don't suspect ang dn 't want to risk multi lynch on a feeble day."

Phantom – Elra (2)
"Out of Daughter and Sally, the former makes the most sense to me at this time, but I do admit that I haven't given Sally a proper read. If it does come down to those two, I will do my best to make myself more informed before I vote."
(Actual reasoning behind the vote remains a questionmark. Wanting to save Lottie after all, or what? Elaboration please?)

Elra – Boro
"Arghh! Okay. Shot in the dark."

So: Lottie 3, Elra 2, Ang 1, Boro 1, Wilwa 1, Sally 1.

[the phantom]

Completely forgot to address your point on double-lynches, Glirdan-

Doubles are completely different from day to day. On Day 1 they are evil. There are no kills to base suspicions on plus a high number of innocents, so you're basically begging for mass Ordo-death with a Day 1 double. Once you have actual suspects though and a lower population, take the risk if you really wish to. Sometimes they're downright useful (see Fea's first Rep game).

Anyway, got to run. Be back on as soon as I get to work.

[Glirdan]

Well now, I have no idea what to do and I have to vote relatively soon, made no easier by Ang's reveal as Glorfy. I am definitely more inclined to believe this reveal then Nog's. He seems to have done it out of pure frustration with phantom as opposed to Nog's reveal which was to save his own skin.

Phantom, I understand your frustrations with the double lynch now, but your phrasing on the Day afterwards still has me unnerved. However, your last long post in response to Angu has me thinking you more along the lines of innocent. The tone of it seems to me that you, like Angu are just greatly frustrated with everything to date, including Boro's incessant attack on you. I'm still unsure as to whether or not you're innocent, or maybe a really clever Cobbler (which I would not put past you), but at this time, I do not think I will vote for you.

And thank you Greenie for those vote recaps. It's nice to be able to look at them on one page instead of having to go back and look at them and the things leading up to it on about ten different pages. And now I'm going to take a good look at them and before I vote. Maybe something there will help me make my decision.

As it stands, my current candidates are Elra and Boro.

[elronds_daughter]

Thank you, dear Ang, for the reveal. This helps matters immensely.

Also, apologies for my lack of posts toDay - It's a Friday, hence I'm gone for 9 straight hours. And before that I sleep. So.

Haven't had time to read over Greenie's vote-analysis/condensation, but I'll get to that.

Phantom, to address your (much) earlier query about my vote yesterDay: I had had a particularly busy day, so my vote was entirely random. No rhyme or reason, other than finding someone who wouldn't die because of my vote, since I didn't have time to vote well.

EDIT: Oh, and:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I would appreciate the help of my hunting comrade. We may then properly assess their claim, among other things.

That would be me.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Elra

EDIT: Oh, and:

That would be me.

Well, that makes things even more frustrating and I really wish I had more time to stay and post and look over this claim (as I'm leery of it, but it would make sense for a the Hunter to be a submarine), but I really have to vote and go to work as I am unsure as to whether or not I will be back in time for DL.

So, to go with my other remaining suspect

++Boro

Between him and phantom, I'm more inclined to believe in phantom's innocence. The way Boro has been steering the village (like phantom) has just got me on edge and unnerved. And his incessant attack of phantom almost seems as if it may be a Wolf trying to be rid of his most deadly enemy. Yes, it's true that both have been doing (the steering that is) it and quite possibly for their own gains, but as it stands (and I'm basing my vote pretty much off the past two days as I have not the time to properly look back), Boro just seems more guilty. Nothing in his posts as of late has me convinced that what he's been saying is for the greater good of the camp.

Anyways, I wish I could stay around and see further events unfold and make a more informed vote, but I have to head to work.

[satansaloser2005]

I have no idea who to vote for now. >.<


I'll have to work up a short post, but it'll take me a bit. Back soon.

[the phantom]

Ah, a Boro vote, and a Daughter reveal, eh? Things are really starting now. Taking sides and whatnot... I do believe I'll give it some time before addressing all angles of this. But for now, since Boro got a vote, I will say that there is an important aspect of Boro's behavior we should not ignore, which would be his desire to kill me.

Those who have played many games with me, I ask you, what is a nearly guaranteed way to attack someone without success and put yourself at risk for a severe backlash? Answer: attack Phantom.

I mean really, I simply do not get lynched in traditional fashion. I was lynched with consent as part of a game-clinching mass lynch orchestrated partly by me in one of Fea's games. Then earlier in another one of Fea's game I was offed the final day because I was forced to vote early in a village which did not actually contain any WWs. The only time I've truly been lynched (yes, just ONCE) was back when WW first started on the Downs, in that infamous game I referenced earlier.

Boro has got to know that, especially given my positioning on him yesterday. Coming out guns blazing against me on a day like today is to me a sure sign of desperate (and mistaken) innocence or reckless Cobblery. He should know as well as anyone on this site that a Phantom-lynch is going to grind to a halt. It always does. Time and again and again... honestly given my track record I ought to feel a bit silly for getting outraged by people voting me. It never works.

And regarding Ang's reveal, I will definitely be accepting it without reservation, as it would be an indication that I'm not completely off on everything. (You were by far and away my prime Glorfy suspect, sir.)

Green- thanks for the votes. I ought to take a look at them.

[A Little Green]

NOT VOTING FOR TODAY:

Anguirel - Believing his claim for now. Quite frankly, I see little reason not to at the time being.

Elra - Believing her claim for now. I'm still unsure of whether there is any sense in Hunter reveals in general, but she's certainly off the hook - and in a game of this sort (or any sort) fake-revealing as the hunter is not really a smart move anyway.

WHICH LEAVES:

Glirdan (Day 1 Lommy (2), Day 2 Nog (4), Day 3 Nessa (5), Day 4 Ang)
Easy votes, which unnerves me. He doesn't strike me as particularly evil otherwise, though; but since (apart from the Ang-vote yesterDay) he has always voted for someone I suspected too, I might be a bit biased here.

Nerwen (Day 1 Manwe (4), Day 2 no vote (or did I miss it?), Day 3 Nessa, Day 4 Elra)
Seems to have consistently voted for a less vocal player, though never mentions that as a reason. Maybe it wasn't. This could go either way (again). On one hand, it makes me think better of her that she isn't latching onto the attention-seeking loudmouths and giving them the attention (always a good strategy for a smooth wolf: the perfect way to slip by unnoticed); but then again, quiet players make for easy targets too.. My brain hurts. Non-vote-wise, I have little on her which is alarming. I'd check her posts if I had the time, which I sadly don't.

Sally (Day 1 no vote, Day 2 Boro, Day 3 Nessa (4), Day 4 Lottie (2))
Wasn't really around yesterDay which would make me hesitant to vote her toDay unless she has time to reappear properly (and continue to look fishy). Since she wasn't here yesterDay, though, my past suspicions haven't changed. Leaning evil.

the phantom (Day 1 Manwe (5), Day 2 Nog (7), Day 3 Lommy (6), Day 4 Elra (2))
He's another hmm. His tone strikes me more as an innocent Phantom - though if he's around, I'd like to hear his reasoning behind voting Elra yesterDay. If Lottie turns out to be a wolf (which I doubt; I thought she seemed rather innocentish) phantom looks worse, but for now he's leaning innocent.

Boro (Day 1 Legate (2), Day 2 Nog (3), Day 3 Lommy (2), Day 4 no vote (again unless I missed it))
I'm not comfortable with him. I didn't like that unreasoned vote for Legate on Day 1, even though he did turn out to be a cobbler. I don't know what to make of his row with Lommy on Day 3, either. On the whole, Boro is a bunch of messy questions in my head right now.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

though if he's around, I'd like to hear his reasoning behind voting Elra yesterDay.

Because Lottie seemed such a Cobbler, and I didn't want her to be able to do the "Gotcha!" dance in my face after the game.

Green (and others, actually), I'd like to know what the latest time is you'll be around, because I'd like to know how soon any discussions need to be wrapped up by.

[the phantom]

Ang, a little whisper for you... I believe you had some right beliefs in your head on Day 2, if you can correctly recall the page you were on back then. Or at least we'll see if I was reading you correctly...

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

Green (and others, actually), I'd like to know what the latest time is you'll be around, because I'd like to know how soon any discussions need to be wrapped up by.

I'm going really really soon (it's 1 AM here, and I've been up since 7 in the morning). Just basically voting and going..

[the phantom]

Well crap. You're leaving, and no one else seems to be around.

I'm particularly irritated that Boro is gone, as despite his already cast vote he could prove quite helpful to me.

Boro- IF YOU HAPPEN TO SKIM OR SCAN THIS THREAD, EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO POST, PLEASE DO SO ANYWAY. SKIP WORK. I DON'T CARE.

[A Little Green]

My number one option would be Sally still, since she's the one I have the strongest evil vibes from. I've heard no one else voice suspicion of her though so I'm wavering - spreading out the votes too much toDay could be disastrous with so few of us left.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[A Little Green]

Yes, I'm not too fond of the DL... This is the closest to deadline I've been here throughout the entire game! I'd like to hear from Boro too, not to mention Sally. Gah. Why stay up late playing WW if there's almost no one around?

[A Little Green]

Votes so far:

Boro - phantom
Glirdy - Boro

Left to vote:

Ang, Elra, Greenie, Nerwen, phantom, Sally

(What a helpful post. Wanted to check if there had been any more votes than these two. Apparently not.)

[the phantom]

I can't speak to Sally's guilt or innocence, but I can tell you it's a better option than any of the gentleman on your list. Of course you may be a Wolf yourself so why would you bother listening, but so long as you don't plan on voting for a fellow I see no need for me to say any more at this time.

[A Little Green]

Hmm. It's really bed time now. I'm going to go with

++ Sally

after all. I figured bringing in a third lynch candidate won't hurt. I'd hate to see this turn into a "phantom versus Boro" -Day, though I am aware that it's already doing so. Besides, Sally is the only one who feels clearly more evil than not to me, and at this stage I'd feel silly going after anyone else.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[the phantom]

Ang- have you pieced the entire thing together, or at least the what and why, and used that to make clearer sense of emotions you've seen?

[the phantom]

Time is ticking, sir knight. If Boro arrives back I won't really need your support at all, as I am quite confident I could get him to see my way with a brief exchange, but if he's truly gone for the day then you are the one person above all others that I need to convince of my case.

[Anguirel]

Relax. I'm here, and reading carefully. We still have four hours (give or take one or two, I've always admitted I'm no good at counting). I'm just a dumb blond and I need a while to work out what the hell you're trying to tell me.

There's a party downstairs (I can discern Blondie) but my commitment is total

[the phantom]

If it helps, my last defense of Boro (here), while accurate, is only part of the point. The other pressing point is contained within the first paragraph, with special emphasis on the final sentence.

(edit: Computer lab I monitor has gotten quite busy. I'll check the thread when I have the chance.)

[Anguirel]

OK Boro and phantom, I think we're quite close to being able to three musketeer this thing out

Which a tempting idea anyway, I must admit, in crude terms. phantom earlier suggested this thing was a bit of a battle of the sexes, nobly loudmouthed male innocents being persecuted by cigarette-holder wielding Mata Haris. It would be funny to turn the tables on such an arrangement. Although coming too clean about that might see us go down to neutral, angered damoiselles...

I believe the huntress Elron, by the way. It makes a lot of emotional sense, and one of the cardinal rules of this game is that the psychological effect of a special role impacts in a way that often makes one look just like a wolf.

I should add some empirical information - at the beginning of this game I was truly a Feanorian innocent (which is why you'll find my early posts larded with Seer hints, as I thought the best way I could serve my side would be to absorb a night kill then help in Mandos). Blind Guardian was an, I take it, inactive Glorfindel and is now a dead innocent.

Among these either two or three are gulity:

Nerwen
A Little Green
sally

Glirdan is a possibility too of course but I have developed a temporary, rough and ready trust in him (because he's male. No not really. I prefer the company of the opposite sex and would like to be dancing to Blondie with them right now were it not for this alternatively blond enterprise)

sally, as I have noted, has what looks like a good - if frighteningly deadly - voting record UNLESS we are in really dire straights and face three wolves. This is upsetting as, of the three, I'm most inclined to go after her, but that's basically because she's most inclined to go after me and I have to think bigger.

That leaves us with two alternatives, both of whom have been quiet, sensible and helpful, Nerwen in the persistent clarity of her theorising, Green (is your name a Joni Mitchell thing?) in dealing with incredibly boring, neutral spadework about voting records.

I'm afraid I'd rather vote for one of these two - and I'd like the support of you noisy chauvinist hooligans, phantom and Boro...of the two, I'm leaning Green as she is trying to shoot down sally who still seems quite unlikely to me

ps no phantom, havenae a clue what you're on about. It seems to me that my only really good Day 2 suggestion was that there might be ten werewolves, and I still wouldn't be that surprised

[Anguirel]

Oh right. If you're just telling me to hang A Little Green, well you'll see I eventually reached the same conclusion (though not in a manner that had aught to do with Day 2). It must be said that Nerwen and Green look like very plausible colleagues of Loslote, in terms of voting...

I'm sorry if I'm being unByzantine here, phantom. I'm alright at lying, and I absolutely love the strategy of actively second guessing nocturnal amusement, but I am useless at cryptography. Actually had to take an exam in it a few months back. Worst candidate they'd had for years

[Anguirel]

look, I'm just an honest Eng Lit graduate, I don't know these complicated long words like paragraphs and sentences

hence I identified the wrong sentence

it's kind of late, what can I say. I'm sure the wolves know what you're into

You seem to want to scrutinise Boro, probs to the point of death, without exactly saying as much. Could you do me a favour and put that plan on hold? I want to lynch somebody really helpful and pleasant instead. Give Mith some agreeable company, etc

[the phantom]

Overrun with kids right now... Likely free within 30-40 minutes.

(No, no- I don't want to kill Boro! That's probably the worst tactical move we could possibly make. I'll lay things out soon as possible. Hopefully others will speak too before then so I can see leanings first rather than just reactions.)

[elronds_daughter]

Well, I have to do this on my (quickly dying) phone, so if there's any advice you all could give (in a nice consice manner) as to who I ought to target... I will admit that I had been picking phantom, but now that our numbers have ddwindled, he's looking a LOT more innocent. I really am not sure about the others besides Boro (i agree with phantom here, I think lynching him would be bad (mostly because he still doesn't strike me as wolfish).

Anyway, advice would be appreciated, since I won't be surprised if I get dead tonight.

Not sure yet who I'll be voting. Whoever's logic looks thinnest, I suppose (and isn't tp or Boro or Ang). Hopefully I'll have time for more than just a cursory examination.