Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Anguirel]

Right. Well, sorry about that hiatus within the non-hiatus. It has been, though, quite helpful for my point of view in retrospect; very rarely am I accorded an insight in a werewolf game which is not a bit deranged by me being in the thick of it. Now I can peruse a whole day of 'control'.

I was concerned after a couple of re-readings by just how much mob rule went on during the day of the double-lynching. Very few candidates were seriously proposed, and of course even fewer voted for. Nessa got half a quorum deciding against her before she had said anything (although admittedly partly because she hadn't). phantom said he thought her more cobbler than wolf. I thought that sounded sensible at the time but actually, that is the most passive and uninfluential way to play a cobbler. I reckon there's a slim outside chance she was a silent Mata Hari wolf, but that more likely the situation was Manwe all over again.

Neither, after some thought, did I like what happened to Thinlomien much, although it was even more unstoppable than Nessa, in a different way. Nessa had none but the most threadbare of defences; Lommy somehow enacted just enough of a defence to convince several big guns, otherwise mutually disunited, that she was lying (I'm thinking Boro, phantom, Mith). Not so sure myself. Her attitude reminded me of me. "So what, wolfy," you might respond, and I suppose that's a valid enough question.

But when one is in fact innocent, the mod has handed one a powerful but double-edged weapon - the absolute conviction of inner (sometimes self-) righteousness. Wolves (and cobblers) can try and imitate this feeling's outward radiation, but they never get it quite right. Cf Nogrod, I think. Whereas in my view Shasta, wilwa and Mith have taken that stand, this game, in ways that convinced me, amongs others, then and now. Obviously Shasta now matters less but I remain pretty confident about the other two.

I say that this inner glow of innocence is double-edged, and that it can be self-righteous, because it makes innocents liable to be defensive. They feel frustrated at their attackers because they know they are truthful, and it's tempting to launch into a retaliatory crusade in turn, where innocents hang each other all over the shop. As an innocent (in this case) who enjoys thinking, and is conscious of sounding, like a wolf (cf Fea, Aganzir), I am subject to a related but different problem - I tend to clear people who accuse me too easily, because I know it is reasonable to accuse me.

I shall therefore try to be quite even-handed about Sally, in negative as well as positive ways. She has brought up a persistent, undercoloured, half-jocular thought about me despite not having me to bounce off and react to about it (as Thinlomien got reacted against by her accusers.) She maintains that case into today despite considerable new event - a voting pattern, a double-lynch and a successful Glorfindel save. I can't remember whether she knows I'm a person people like to lynch, but against someone largely absent, I wouldn't call it the boldest of manouevres. I will give it this, though: it's quite original at the moment, more so than either of yesterday's candidates.

So much for Sally, who is one of my suspicions but certainly not supreme among them. That honour goes to Loslote. I believe her implication that she caused the double-lynch by accident, but her stress on this accident, a preemptive fanning off of blame, looks really bad. Also, read her posts yesterday's and no one else's. The consistency of wolf-perspective they show, given their rarity and brevity, is really noticeable. On the whole then I think her guilty of murder rather than of shoemaking. A cobbler wouldn't have bothered to try and excuse that double-lynch to her extent. I would like to lynch Loslote today well ahead of anyone else.

phantom is as so often in a sort of architecturally integral position, where no one has the spirit or strength to conduct archaeological research on him because the operation is megalithic, inconvenient, and a bit dangerous. Unfortunately I myself am firmly in that "no one." I don't want to lynch him yet (and that's a phrase that keeps coming up about him; Boro and Elron both said something of the kind yesterday). I will say this though - I disapprove of his ironclad set of instructions to the dead. We all need absolute flexibility to adapt to new situations, not further rules in a heavily ruled game...

Mith's amendment was therefore helpful as far is went, but it only diluted what I think is innately a bad idea. (I was uneasy too with the number of people who loudly OKed it; the expressive enthusiastic support of a detail; like constitutional reform supporters in other political struggles, they seemed technical, weird and playing a long game...)

Finally, a few observations on the few voices that seem to defy the convention wisdom - even if sometimes very oddly. sally's casually intent pursuit of me is one example. Legate's position that lynching Cobblers is a bad thing (the heir of Nogrod's theory) and overt suspicion of phantom is another. A Little Green, even more radically, still wonders whether Nogrod was perhaps truthful. Glirdan's defence of wilwa is strong, well expressed and convincing - even if arguably only a wolf has the knowledge to be so persuasive.

I think much of the stuff in that last paragraph is mistaken on specifics, but all the same if we want to face the full range of possibilities we need more thinking like it.

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

[Anguirel]

(as you can see, I'm afraid I think we still haven't caught a real wolf, though we may be down a cobbler or two. One of those cobblers is isolated in Mandos, more or less in the open, so we can probably count on quite helpful support from the Dead right now. But the population is dipping worryingly.)

I'm sorry the above is so antisocial to read, as well. I had a lot to say and had been prevented, first by my bodyclock then by the aether, from saying it...

And, please speak up lords and ladies. Some of our most vocal debaters are dead now. On this thread as well as theirs. (Now I'm starting to imagine them as Oxford and Cambridge...)

[Mithalwen]

But Lommies "defence" of my point was totally unconvincing. Apart from the fact that it was completely inconsistent, I find feigning ignorance of the rules supremely suspicious. One think to miss an in game post but the rules are upfront and accessible. Apart from the fact it is a basic cursory to the mod to read them it always seems so disingenuous to ask rather than to go and check too "oh I am too innocent and ordinary to have to worry about the technicalities".

[Anguirel]

I'm feeling extremely sympathetic to a disillusioned attitude to the technicalities.

This plan re: lynching and double votes, for example. I don't get one major thing: it seems to assume that wolf for wolf votes won't happen. Isn't that crazy?

But really I just hate plans, on principle. They mean we end up having to talk about boring mechanics instead of wild psychoanalytical speculation.

[Mithalwen]

Well Idont' do plans for myself but I just felt it was a more elegant solution. So whose psyche shall we analyse wildly? There are some dark places there to rival Moria...

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

Just popping in - I'll be back more in a few hours - but I wanted to comment on that. That suggestion of who the 'pack' is is wrong in so many ways. Not just because I can personally say that one out of three is, in fact, innocent. That's not helpful, I'm aware of this. But another one - Glirdy - has a definite wolf persona. When he's a wolf, you can tell. He's not a wolf. I won't say whether or not he's a cobbler, but I think there are more obvious cobbler suggestions. So, in my mind, that's two out of three that are most defintely not wolves. Sally doesn't strike me as anything other than her normal, cupcakey self. Aaaand there's (likely) three of his 'pack' that seem like nothing even close to wolves to me.

On the whole, I'm thinking Ang might be one of our cobblers. His long, long talk about double edged innocence basically served to turn that post into a giant theoretical talk while still sounding pretty and easy enough to read. It basically boils down to "innocents act innocent" - which, while true, does not require nearly that many words to say.

His responce to Sally was more innocent, admittedly. That's really the only thing keeping me from labelling him a cobbler.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Glirdy - has a definite wolf persona. When he's a wolf, you can tell. He's not a wolf. I won't say whether or not he's a cobbler, but I think there are more obvious cobbler suggestions.

Hardly going to take that on trust from you right now, am I? Have a care, Loslote; you're creating exactly the form of alliance that was the glue missing from my case. Give some solid examples, if you like, of what you mean by this. I note only right now that Glirdan is playing well, helpful, articulate and vigilant, and that makes me want to be very cautious. I have much solider feelings about you.

And - "sally is her usual cupcakey self"? Come, what colourless piffle. I gather that sally is for some reason known as a cupcake, but I really don't see how that has a bearing on her guilt or innocence.

[Anguirel]

Sigh. We are going to have to face up to the phantom question eventually. You've broadly agreed with him since that one major bout, Mith. I trust you and pathologically can't trust him.

What, however, do you think of my more substantive actual suspicions?

I'm going to go away and do some Academic Work I'm afraid (Tuesday is a heavy day for me in theory yet I've done nothing so far). I'm sure I'll return to find much debate of interest.

Yeah, I can see what's going for this Morse code esque system, elron. And I'm not really qualified to examine its defences. It's just really not the way I roll. In the best case scenario, we still have a Seer and Glorfindel; we certainly have at least one; and I suppose my predisposition is in these less rational forces rather than a System to end all Systems

[Anguirel]

"long, long" talk, Loslote? Two of my nine paragraphs, and I thought it an important point to defend not only my own position but also my view of Mith and wilwa. I regard the most important part of that little autobiography, though, as being the bit that touches on you...

[Mithalwen]

I don't know I ever trust the phantom but I have known him be that bossy when being the architect of a village victory however I am not going to gun for him yet because as has been remarked this place is quiet enough already. He'll keep with the caveat that I am a bit wary of his border collie act re voting.

[Glirdan]

First off:

Originally Posted by Angu

Glirdan's defence of wilwa is strong, well expressed and convincing - even if arguably only a wolf has the knowledge to be so persuasive.

Did you miss the part where I said it was all meta-reasoning?? Trying to twist my words into something its not?

I see that there is a general consensus on how we would like the dead to give the vote and I'm in agreement with Boro that we should also state who we would like them to check. I also have to agree with Boro that Glorfy should remain hidden. I think Glorfy would help us more by staying hidden cuz at least this way xe could find other non-wolves.

At first when I read Angu's, as elron so put it, "tome", I felt uneasy. After re-reading, I still feel that way. It seems like he's just finding the smallest excuse to bring suspicion to everyone else and it just seems liks an all too easy way for a Wolf to throw suspcion off of himself.

Xed with some Miths, Angus and a Lottie

[Anguirel]

Annoyingly the crucial and abundant work I have to do about Renaissance Ireland is actually quite interesting as well. However, this thing is at a pretty exciting stage and keeps distracting me from it. And vice versa. Will probably mishandle both...

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I think Glorfy would help us more by staying hidden cuz at least this way xe could find other non-wolves.

Undecided on this one, but we are so short on solid information that I really can't help wanting Glorfindel the Beloved to break some tension...

I feel really bad about elron's last post actually. There's a sort of mad collective conformity in this village, er, camp, which she endorses, straight down the line, numerous times -

- "not sure" on people she's been prominent in helping kill
- in favour of the technocratic elite with their elaborate plan that involves evil counting
- the phantom could be a wolf ,but for some reason we shouldn't possibly interrogate him yet
- the lovers are innocent (well, yeahhh...)
- Loslote is a scatty innocent

It's just...unconfrontational and platitudinous. There are wolves in this camp. Elron, who do you suspect? At the moment the closest thing you have to a suspect appears, in my view risibly, to be Mith...

[Mithalwen]

Which would make sense if Ang had been under much suspicion, which I can't say I have noticed. Only Loslote after he said he suspecter her and now you in the same circumstances.

Ang and I are are of the old and nearly extinct breed of instinctive, intuitive players. It seems now that analysis and theorising or "in crowd" refs are more tolerated. I don't know for sure if Ang is a wolf, or cobbler or whatever but expecting a cross referenced list or something from him would be like getting Shadowfax to pull a cart.

Need to pop out briefly then I will return.....

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Xed with some Miths, Angus and a Lottie

Don't call him Angus please... I'll go all ISIHAC and feel I should tell him "You'll have had your tea!" And then only answer to Mrs Trellis..

[Anguirel]

arrrrrrrghanother thing I want to note before go off on my several-hours-delayed hike to the library is that Loslote and Glirdan, though each, as Mith helpfully points out, do insta-react defensively to me, do so in very different ways, ways that reinforce my strong suspicion of Loslote and weaken my worry about Glirdan. In that, Glirdan thinks I'm a wolf and Loslote thinks I'm a cobbler.

A wolf is much more likely to make cobbler accusations (I think we've gone over this before), because they know the person they accuse is not a wolf. It enables them to harness some of that ring of truth that belongs authentically to an innocent. It's also much more lordly, reasonable, chilled out. Less frightened. Whereas the innocent straight out accuses someone of being a wolf because they think it might well be so.

INNOCENT: (to INNOCENT 2 and WOLF): You two are guilty.

INNOCENT 2: Take that back now, wolf!

WOLF: (flicking ash off end of cigarette holder) Whatever, cobbler.

I am inclined now to suspect Elron more than Glirdan and Loslote more than Sauron.

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Mith

...too "oh I am too innocent and ordinary to have to worry about the technicalities".

I agree with you on this.

And Ang, your tome was one of the easier ones to read through. I found it helpful.

Not much for opening thoughts, I know.... I'm not sure how "okay" I am with the double-lynch. Glad the Lommy-enigma (she always is, to me) is gone, yes. But Nessa? I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I disapprove of his ironclad set of instructions to the dead. We all need absolute flexibility to adapt to new situations, not further rules in a heavily ruled game...

Mith's amendment was therefore helpful as far is went, but it only diluted what I think is innately a bad idea. (I was uneasy too with the number of people who loudly OKed it; the expressive enthusiastic support of a detail; like constitutional reform supporters in other political struggles, they seemed technical, weird and playing a long game...)

I'm not sure what you mean here. Or rather, I'm not sure why devising a (very simple) system for communicating with the Dead concerns you. We can't count on the Lovers or Glorfy (that would just be bad sense tactically), so it makes sense that we ought to have a method of communication. And I don't see how it's "ironclad". We can always change it, if change is agreed upon. Or if it seems like the extra-vote-getters are not going to vote well. It's not a rule, just a system.

Upon consideration, I think I understand why it seems immovable to you. We need to be decisive, otherwise the Dead might get mixed messages. And we don't want that. So Boro and phantom (who is still fishy to me, but is not without his contributions) are being decisive.

But, done is done, on to a new day, etc., etc., and we need to catch a wolf. So.

Opinions:
Well, obviously the Lovers are okay.
I'm not sure what to make of Mith.
It strikes me that Lottie has often come across as "oh, dear, did I do something?" while still being innocent. So.....well, I'll investigate.
phantom is still iffy, but I'm still not ready to lynch him yet.
Boro seems innocenter and innocenter to me.
Not sure about the rest.


Oh, lastly - Yay, Glorfy!