Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Rikae]

Dawn brought no particularly interesting revelation to the miserable elven host: as expected, one of their number had been brutally mauled, his innards draped around the camp like holiday garlands (if holiday garlands existed at the time), his head missing - it was found, later, in a nearby stream - and his bizarre clothing strewn about, torn, and covered with wolf hair. He was barely recognizable as Shasta, and certainly no one could tell whether he had been possessed, gifted, or just odd.

The elves dragged what was left of their comrade to the stream and sent it on its way, bowed their heads momentarily in mourning, and then set about the business of killing someone else.

The living:

Nogrod
Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

The dead:
Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Shasta

Day 2 has begun. You may post.

[elronds_daughter]

Oh dear, oh dear. Poor Shasta.

I still don't know quite what to make of yesterDay. Manwe's been killed, for reasons beyond me. That whole Shasta vs. Nog thing was troublesome, and probably why Shasta got dead. Makes me worry about Nog. And phantom is a bother at the back of my brain. Something seems off about him, despite his sense-making. Or maybe that's just him. So many people in this game that I haven't played with before...this makes for an uncomfortable lack of predictability.

Arghh. This is so much shorter than I originally intended. I meant to go back through everything and look an analyze a bit...but that requires logic, which requires sleep. Which I think I shall do now. Back eventually...do be productive while I'm gone, will you?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by elronds_daughter

Manwe's been killed, for reasons beyond me.

Here's my thoughts on this set of Day One votes. Noggles, cover your ears; you know we never agree on this stuff. There are obviously the two camps: Day One is important and we need to pay really close attention to it; and Day One is important, but only in retrospect because while it's happening, all the good guys are totally clueless, so their votes are about as reliable as those of the wolves.

In this game, where you don't feel so bad about killing anybody because they still get to play in the Afterlife, votes become even more insignificant. You can kill anybody without worrying that you've totally screwed up everything, because even if you kill the seer, whatever, they can still do stuff.

Here's why I think people (including me) voted for people they didn't really think were wolves: odds were already against us actually nabbing a bad guy on the first day. Particularly since we don't find out if we got one or not, it's a matter of luck to kill anybody naughty. Since we have no way of knowing who we're going after, or what they are, or if they're on our side, the rationale comes down to, "Eh, we might as well just kill whoever, since it's not like they're gone forever anyway."

My vote for Nerwen (yes, Ang was dead on accurate with exhaustion coloring my decisions, as opposed to wolf-slaying) was because I figured if I had bad odds of getting a bad guy, I wasn't going to find out anyway, and I'd rather have a bit of faith of the people making decisions on the Dead Thread. Besides that, there has never been a single time that I've accurately determined her role before it was told to me, so I figured if I killed her when I found her ambiguous, there was a logical (to my mind) chance I was killing a sneaky wolf anyway.

The point in general is that Day One votes meant even less in this game, because there was no reason to feel bad about who we killed, because if we got a good guy, oops but they can still play and do good things, and if we got a bad guy, woo hoo. A lot of shrugging was involved in my decision making. As in, "Eh. Not like it matters."

That being said, now that Day One is over and we have a bit to go on, I don't think anybody (including myself) should make votes with apathy (and curiosity... I mean, I'm curious about the nature of the Dead Thread).

This brings me to:

Originally Posted by Eddy

That whole Shasta vs. Nog thing was troublesome, and probably why Shasta got dead. Makes me worry about Nog.

I agree on the first two. Not so much on the last. Shasta is the only one (or one of the only; too lazy to check my stats) that showed a pronounced attack on anybody. And that person was Nog. So my general idea is either Nog is a wolf and the team thought maybe Shasticle was the Seer, since he was actually showing some initiative and some specific ire... or (and this is the one I lean toward), the wolf team noticed that Shasta was showing pronounced opinions, and that if they killed him, the village would think they killed him because they thought he was the seer.

This translates to, either way, Shasta made himself look most seerish out of anybody else in the village, whether he was one or not. I think the wolves took advantage of his behavior to make us doubt Nog (as if we'd trust him anyway ) and to make us think we lost our seer early.

I don't know if our seer's alive or not, but I know that Shasta's crankiness made it look like he was seeing the world through informed eyes, one way or another. So basically, I'm not saying the seer (if xe's still alive) should go around declaring ximself or, conversely, hiding all of his information. Just... act rationally.

Originally Posted by Glirdy

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.

I'm with Glirdums. I think that Shasta's death says nothing about Nog, but says quite a lot about The Wolves. Not that those are mutually exclusive, but the point is that Nog as an independent entity is irrelevant to the conversation.

Originally Posted by Glirdy

I'm particularaly interested in phantom's vote actually. He voted last and for Manwe who was already set to die. He could have just as easily voted Legate or Nog to bring it to a double lynch, but instead voted for Manwe. Now, he could be an innocent who didn't want to see Nog or Legate go (I recall him saying he rather wanted to keep them around), or a very clever Cobbler or Wolf masking his vote in that way to keep suspicion off of himself. What really gets me about him was that he was adamant on voting for Lommy and then turned around and voted Manwe.

Uh, just pointing out, phanty doesn't like double lynches unless he's orchestrated them in a dramatic fashion. He *could* have created a double lynch, but if he was a good guy, why would he do that?

Originally Posted by Ang

"You are actually a Son of Feanor and have the combined special powers of the entire Tol-in-Gaurhoth Grimoire. On the other hand, there are actually ten werewolves."

I've never done that! Though I see your point. However, as a mod, I try very hard to list the existence of my plot twists on the sign up thread. Anyway, irrelevant...

Shower, clothes, coffee, etcetera... I might be a little inactive today since I have to finish my semester plan and get it and a bunch of other work turned in, not to mention revise a story so I can get back to work on sketches... Not that any of you should have to care, but that's just my explanation for why my participation will be irregular toDay.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I'm particularaly interested in phantom's vote actually. He voted last and for Manwe who was already set to die.

That's easy. I wanted to kill Lommy, but at that point it was impossible, so I had to vote for someone else. I wanted to rule out a multi-lynch, so I just boosted the lead of Manwe who was already guaranteed to die. Why put Legate or Nog under threat with my vote when I suspected neither of them? The death of one person you haven't particularly suspected is much better than the double-lynching of two people you don't suspect.

Originally Posted by Legate

I don't have anything against his self-centered behavior, that is something we all should be used to by now, but I don't like his subtle defense of Nogrod.

I didn't realize it was "subtle". It was meant to be bash-over-the-head obvious. Shasta and Nog were the two I felt the best about by the end of yesterday. Seeing one of them die during the night was bad enough, and I'm sure as heck not going to allow the other to be taken down at the same time. If the Wolves intended it to be the case then it means that they are counting on us not thinking things through clearly (I've already explained why the set-up doesn't make sense logically).

Basically I'm taking the kill somewhat personally. Why Shasta? He didn't look more like Glorfy or a Lover than anyone else (which is the most logical reason to kill him), so why him? And if not for that reason, the only other reason was to encourage a Nog lynch- a frame-up attempt so juvenile that I feel rather as if my intelligence is being insulted.

Anyway, off to class now. Talk to everyone later.

[wilwarin538]

Ok, my favourite post from Day 1:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm completely lost on this entire voting for people to be good to control the dead thread. Umm, am I mistaken in believing we win by lynching wolves in the living thread? I'm sorry I'm just not understanding this logic of filling the dead thread with people we actually think are innocent...? Why are we even planning this?

1) We win by killing wolves in this life, not by filling the dead place with innocents. Am I foolish in thinking those two things contradict?

2) Simple numbers work out that innocents will control the dead thread. It serves the wolves little good to get lynched, or they lose. Maybe one wolf would start going to work if lynched, but that's not something we should concern ourselves with. And even if Cobblers seek to get themselves killed to work beyond the grave, they don't know who the wolves are.

3) What's so special about the dead thread it MUST UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES be in the control of the innocents or we're doomed? Someone from the living thread gets 2 votes...that's all yes? It's not like the dead are choosing an unstoppable force each day in the living thread, one person gets one extra vote.

So, let's end this silly "we should think about keeping the control of the dead thread in the hands of the innocents" when the real problem should be, handling the business of this thread...lynch wolves.

Because while reading the posts from yesterDay, this is precisely what I would have said had I been around. Just so everyone has an idea of what my contribution would have been. I also think I would perhaps have voted for Legate, because as I was reading I was getting bad vibes, and vibes are usually the basis of my Day 1 votes (that doesn't mean I necessarily suspect him, I just know that my Day 1 votes are usually lame and based on flimsy reasoning, and he is probably who I would have gone for).

Alrighty. So not much can be taken from Manwe's lynch, because we have no idea what he is. We can still suspect/trust people based on their votes (all votes, not just those for Manwe), but not in the usual way. Usually we can say "X voted for Y, who we now know is innocent, so...", but now it's more based on why they voted for people, so if they gave good reasoning, or if it seemed random, and so on. It's an interesting situation, cause now someone can look bad to us because of how they voted, but for all we know they actually voted a wolf (which would make them look awesome), but we don't have that knowledge. It's all just so crazy.

Shasta's death is interesting. I think it makes Glirdy look not like a wolf, because of that whole "Shasta's acting the way he did last time he was a seer". I greatly dislike this comment, and would be suspecting Glirdy fervently right now, if it wasn't for the fact that Shasta is now dead. It would be a super awful idea for a Glirdywolf to kill a person who he openly suspected to be a Seer. However, I think he could be a Cobbler, who was trying to hint to the wolves. Or Shasta's death is totally unrelated to Glirdy's comment, and more related to the fact that people seemed to like him a lot (though this doesn't exclude the possibility of Glirdy being a Cobbler, he could still have meant to hint at the Wolves but the Wolves just killed Shasta for a totally different reason).

And I need to go order some pizza. I should be back in a bit, perhaps with a list. Then I need to go to work, but will be on for about the last 3 hours of the Day.

[Nogrod]

Just finished reading. A few comments now, more later in the evening.

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on. In this kind of a game the wolves would save their mate on D1 with no problems.

Which brings to me to the next issue: we should actually look more carefully to any saving-attempts in this game. Now people save others form lynching also because they think that one is less suspicious (or downright trustworthy - or anything in between), but especially if we find out a pattern it might be significant.


About Shasta then. I don't see why Fea thinks he looked seerish. To me he looked first bantering only, then calculatively evil - and then he overreacted his agitation in a grand scale. Back then he felt like a caught-up wolf to me. Later (today) I started thinking he could have been one of the lovers or the ranger... That might explain his suddenly strong reaction (and seeing Shasta dead points to the wolves thinking along the same lines to me).

But the problem is, even that doesn't make sense. Had there been a general "let's lynch Shasta" -wagon developing with every other player saying how he is suspicious (like there clearly was a let's lynch Nog -wagon back then), it would have been a bit more understandable. But there wasn't any Shasta wagon.

And I do doubt that somone with Shasta's experience would just go crazy about that kind of one suspicion on him (mine, that is), especially if he was a gifted as that woud be like calling the wolves to meet him during the Night - just to take the most promising choice.



Boro: I'm a bit at loss as to what is your question to me. I have two guesses though.

Firstly, being an optimist or a pessimist isn't a wolf-trait or an inocence-trait - and being optimist or pessimist wasn't the point of my first post. Saying we have "a bloody mess" was just my general feeling of the situation (I don't know how that sounds in your ears, but in my ears as a non-native speaker it sounds more like a bit funny way of expressing the exceptionally challenging nature of our situation). So I'm failing to see what is suspicious in it - and find someone trying tob make that look suspicious himself (there's the fb-impression of you: unlike you on me, I had a good reason to suspect you).

"Giving instructions" to the gifteds then... If I find important facets of the game-mechanics which the gifteds & the goodies should be aware of and see no one has brought them up, I think it is my duty to bring them up. Of course I can't tell the seer (or anyone) what to do, but I can ask them to consider. Especially in this case as the suggestion (which I still think is a valuable one) calls for the seer to consider self-sacrifice at some phase of the game - and not on the very last Days - which surely sounds counterintuitive and odd for a normal WW-game. But this is not a normal game.

Add here talking about what the wolves will or may do and why. Like I said already yesterDay, bringing that kind of stuff out in the open sometimes nullifies the possible try-out of that plot (because now we know it), makes it easier for other innocents to spot it (had they not thoguht of it) if wolves decide to go that way, or you can try to divert them into thinking about a ploy which in the last instance is not in their objective interest but actually serves us etc. etc. There are many reasons incents should to do those.


I have to leave now for a while but wil be back with some other issues.


EDIT: x'd with Wilwa

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by the phantom

the only other reason was to encourage a Nog lynch- a frame-up attempt so juvenile that I feel rather as if my intelligence is being insulted.

In last game, we let Nessa Wolfrunya live even though two or three kills pointed at her, thinking the wolves were just trying to frame her.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on. In this kind of a game the wolves would save their mate on D1 with no problems.

No. Nog I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Are we really so different, or are you intentionally trying to mislead us?
There were quite few people around at deadline and it's possible none of them was a wolf (although wolves tend to like to stay online till the end if possible), but even if they all were wolves, Mänwe might still have been a cobbler. You're making things sound far simpler than they are.

and then he overreacted his agitation in a grand scale.

I think you were actually being quite rude to him.

I want to hear more from Nog... I'm still feeling bad about him.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on.

I don't know about that. Wilwa and Sally were both gone completely it seems (though we didn't know it at the time), and the Manwe votes came fairly late in the order, so really the only people who could've launched a rescue were Mith and I, and honestly even that was out once Nerwen's vote was in. A rescue attempt was extremely likely to end in nothing except a double-lynch. So I'd say all that proves is that Mith, Manwe, and I aren't all packmates, as we would've been sure to send down an innocent with our pal.

And just to see if I'm on your page, Nog, would you agree with me when I say you've been purposefully manipulative this game, in particular attempting to plant a certain idea into the minds of the village that isn't quite truthful but could very well yield a positive result? Because at this time much of my trust of you is based upon what I thought you were trying to do Day 1. Of course it may be foolishness to expect you to deny it given what it gains you, but I do at least hope for honesty.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

No. Nog I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Are we really so different, or are you intentionally trying to mislead us?
There were quite few people around at deadline and it's possible none of them was a wolf (although wolves tend to like to stay online till the end if possible), but even if they all were wolves, Mänwe might still have been a cobbler. You're making things sound far simpler than they are.

It is perfectly possible no wolf was there at the DL, but as you said there were quite many people (and what you say about wolves' general willingness to make it for the DL) so it seems very probable there were wolves around.

As I very well know my innocence and now feel like Mänwe was an innocent as well, it would mean the top two contenders for lynching in the end of yesterDay were innocents and the wolves were in no panic to make any strong moves. There is a chance that some of the last votes were made to make a double-lynch possible, and a slight chance there could have been a faint attempt to help Mänwe (I think the latter a bit far-fetched, but possible, surely, otherwise I'd say I have strong and explicit reasons to firmly allege that Mänwe was/is innocent ).

Mänwe is a cobbler? Surely. Perfectly possible. If he thought both me and Shasta were innocents that "fueling the flames" -comment that probably got him lynched would look like a cobblery one.

I said innocent, not ordo, or ordinary innocent. Meaning he's not a wolf (whom the others tried to save). I'm a bit puzzled of the way you try to make me look suspicious... Are you trying to make me suspect you? Well, no deal done.

Originally Posted by Agan

I think you were actually being quite rude to him.

I do think it is a perfectly valid and normal way of playing werewolf that you speculate on the motives behind what someone says looking how a wolf-X would have thought and which would have been her/his motives - or how what X said could be said by a wolf-X.

I said he picked me from me and tp because it was the easier pick as I would not be there to defend myself. A perfectly valid point I think as I could see no real difference in the input of what I and the phantom had been talking. And of course we had been the voice of reason there, so him suspecting us from being seriously helpful and making sense felt really wolvish to me. (I must say I was actually quite puzzled as to how tp seemed to think about the same things and in generally the same way - but more of the phantom later as I have now changed my mind on him a bit).

Let's look at your own post Aganzir: you say

are you intentionally trying to mislead us?

I don't know if it's a generational, linguistical or whateverical difference that is involved, but to me what I quoted from your post means openly entertaining a possibility that I am intentionally trying to mislead people and thus have bad intentions - which is exactly what my post on Shasta did: it openly entertained a possibility that he made certain convenient choices for a wolf.

I can't see you being able to deny that what you wanted to express by that quoted part was asking others to think that I am intentionlly trying to mislead - and thus think that I'm having bad intentions aka. being a baddie of some sort.

The fact that you used a questionmark doesn't change the substance or the willed effect of the intended message.

Still, I'm not calling you rude or get crazy.

[Thinlómien]

Okay I'm here. I'm currently on a summer cottage with a bunch of friends and we are playing an RPG most of the time. Unfortunately, I happen to be the game master so I don't have much time when I'm not needed, so my time is very limited. I'm going to comment on stuff from yesterDay and toDay, then say if there's something more, then vote and go. I know that's pretty awful for contribution, but I'll be around more on Day3, whichever thread I'll be posting on.

First off, still a few words - I was quite surprised to come here and find Mänwë dead. I know my vote was a bit of a throwaway and I hadn't had much time or evidence to make a better choice. So, it definitely made me raise my eyebrows to find out so many people followed my vote. I have hard time thinking everybody else (including those who voted some six hours later than me) were just as clueless as me and that it's normal they would join such a random bandwagon. Mänwë was suspicious enough to merit one vote, but definitely not a bandwagon. I know this sounds a bit hypocritical coming from me, but I for one would not have given Mänwë a second or third vote on those grounds.

Shasta then. I would need to check his posts to see if he seemed seerish or glorfy or lovery. It's interesting to think about the first option: I think recently people have been ignoring clear aiming-at-the-seer kills and missed valuable information. Nog could be a wolf - I think wolves can be just as ruthless in this game as they want because no one quite knows what to expect of them. On the other hand, it could very well be he was taken for some other reason, or that the wolves are trying to frame Nog. (Which leads to the question: who would want to do this? Is there anyone special? Or would the wolves just generally enjoy the attantion ona loudmouth innocent?) I also think one rather believable explanation for Shasta's death is that he was continuing the eternal lovey-dovey jokes with Nerwen. Now, the lovers might want to be careful this time, but could Shasta and Nerwen resist the temptation, or even consider it a threat given they flirt all the time anyway? And in any case wolves who do not know them too well could have attacked them for that anyway. (This would point at ... Ed? Ang? Mith...?)

Anyway, while you think about that, I'm off to make the huge-y post.


edit: xed with Aggs who is either on the right track or falling victim to a grand wolvish scheme... knowing her it could be either

[Thinlómien]

Okay I'm splitting this novel to make it more readable...

Originally Posted by Agan

Actually I disagree. If they manage to kill both Glorfindel and a lover before the seer, there's no one to bring back a word from Mandos.

Yes, but it still doesn't change the fact that the seer can reveal while still living, as usual. Now, there will undoubtedly be a counter-reveal given the amount of cobblers in this game (unless they all happen to die before the seer decides to come out, which is possible), but the seer reveal is still a threat to the wolves because although we cannot know if we are doing the right thing or not, we have a 50% chance of lynching a wolf if we lynch somebody whom a seer has named as a wolf. That's why I think the wolves want to kill the seer asap. Also, aiming for Glorfy or lovers is kind of gambling for them: they don't know if they succeeded or not, and they still don't have the seer and there's two of them (1. lovers and 2. glorfy). If they aim for the message birds, with bad luck they leave at least half of them alive and boom! when they finally hit the seer on Night5 or something like that and there's still say glorfy remaining, he can return with info about much more living people than if he returned with the info of a seer who died on Night2 or 3. I wouldn't also be surprised if wolves tried avoiding killing lovers and glorfy for the whole game and thus rendering them rather useless by leaving them for devoruing in the end-game.

Originally Posted by Agan

It's not the best role for people with an ego... but it's possible.

Tell me about it. *remembers a certain video about self as cobbler*

Originally Posted by Legate

Anyway, I think there is actually something rather awkward about Lommy, her comments don't seem like that of her usual self. She had once called me "a hog on laughing gas" (when I was innocent), so I think it's not unfair if I call her in return "running like a headless chicken", because that's exactly what it seems like.

Thanks darling.

Originally Posted by Greenie

To tell you the truth, Lommy is creeping me out at the moment. Wanting to kill phantom and Lottie strikes me as awfully easy - also partly because I'm quite fine with both of them right now. Also, her idea of a Bobbler is pretty far-fetched, but I don't know if it's meant as fully serious or not. And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.

1. Tp and Lottie might not seem extra suspicious but they kind of annoy(ed) me. 2. I know it was far-fetched, but worth pointing out. I wouldn't discredit the idea of cobblers trying to pass on information to the wolves via hints. 3. I feel so much like saying: in all seriousness, I'm not a cobbler, but I think that wouldn't help my case.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Wait.. The perspective of that last sentence is strange, considering that the topic I believe was innocents uniting in Mandos.

Good catch!

Originally Posted by Greenie

Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil.

Okay now that was too much! You always suspect me, at least on Day1. Are you intentionally trying to mislead people about this??

Originally Posted by phanty

Okay, so, I believe I've heard multiple people talk about baddies messing things up in Dead-Thread. Is it a good idea then to avoid lynching suspected Cobblers? Because really Cobblers are the only Baddies that can do damage over time in Dead-Thread, because identities of Wolves can be checked by the dead. If we do our best to keep Cobblers alive, Goodies will own Dead-Land with total authority.

If the Wolves want to screw things up in Dead-Land, make them flush a kill on a Cobbler.

The obvious drawback is if we adopt this plan and all three Cobblers act Cobblerish and stay alive and, IF we fail to lynch Wolves early on, the Baddies can clinch victory a couple days before they normally could. But really that would assume that every little thing went wrong, yes?

So.... long live the Cobblers?

I think you're kind of overestimating the power of cobblers. In a way you're right, we should not make cobblers our prime target. Still, we shouldn't ignore them either. The worst havoc they can do on the dead thread is a false reveal or giving a wolf one extra vote. And false reveals can be just as bad here. So I wouldn't worry too much.

Originally Posted by Fea

Leijonien kanssa.

Trying to buddy her up, eh?

I don't get why tp is so obsessed about the dead thread. Pardon me for bringing the cobblers up again, but that strikes me as something a phabbler would do: smoothly and subtly try to concentrate the discussion on something rather irrelevant, but not too relevant to raise too many eyebrows.


edit: xed with everyone

[A Little Green]

Some scattered comments.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest. And if tp is an innocent too (a view I'm slightly leaning over right now even if I can't be totally positive about it), then any trust forming between the innocents would be bad for the wolves. So those people should be done away with asap.

This is making me raise my eyebrows a bit, especially the first sentence. I'm not sure about Nog otherwise, I wonder if a Nogwolf would be so aggressive.

Originally Posted by Boro

I find myself having trouble concentrating anything after being referred to as Bobbler. Nice one Greenie.

I'm here to serve.

Originally Posted by Agan

At the moment I'm inclined to say one of Lommy and Greenie is a baddie. Lommy was looking cobblerish, but it was actually only after Greenie pointed it out that peoples started suspecting her. The problem with Greenie is, she's being too nice to me. She questioned me a bit but dropped it quickly and said she's okay with me. Usually when we're both innocent this bickering continues for a few days after which we basically trust each other. But now she seems different - you know, accusing me just for the sake of doing it and stopping it before I retaliate.

I can assure you I'm just as surprised as you are. You've misread me at some point though because I don't think I accused you yesterDay at all. (But if it consoles you, I'm starting to get paranoid about you because I think you're being too nice as well - as in, you haven't annoyed me once! )

Originally Posted by Boro

Edit: correcting typo of "killer beers" to "killer bees"

If I could rep you for a typo, I would.

Originally Posted by Wilwa, about Glirdan

However, I think he could be a Cobbler, who was trying to hint to the wolves.

I was thinking the same. What Agan said - it would be odd from an innocent to say someone behaves the same way they did when they were the Seer - but a wolf would have to be very careless or very bold to do that.

Originally Posted by Agan

Not interested in getting rid of Mänwe so much as saving a potential cobbler or two.

You seem awfully sure none of the other lynch candidates was a wolf.

Originally Posted by Fea

I agree on the first two. Not so much on the last. Shasta is the only one (or one of the only; too lazy to check my stats) that showed a pronounced attack on anybody. And that person was Nog. So my general idea is either Nog is a wolf and the team thought maybe Shasticle was the Seer, since he was actually showing some initiative and some specific ire... or (and this is the one I lean toward), the wolf team noticed that Shasta was showing pronounced opinions, and that if they killed him, the village would think they killed him because they thought he was the seer.

I might be totally off with this - too lazy to go back and check - but I got the impression that Shasta was after phantom quite as much as Nog. That would make the scenario of a Shasta-Seer who dreamed Nog quite improbable.

Originally Posted by Agan

She went consistently after Lommy since her first post. I find the vote somewhat fishy though. Granted, I see what she means about Lommy but she seems to explain her vote in more length than necessary - no one expects day 1 votes to be fully reasoned.

Which means they shouldn't be? I could have simply said "see my previous posts for reasons" but since I hate it when others do that I resolved not to do it myself.

Originally Posted by Nog

And I do doubt that somone with Shasta's experience would just go crazy about that kind of one suspicion on him (mine, that is), especially if he was a gifted as that woud be like calling the wolves to meet him during the Night - just to take the most promising choice.

The way I saw it, Shasta's strong reaction to your vote for him wasn't so much going crazy because he was suspected, but being insulted by your phrasing.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Mänwë was suspicious enough to merit one vote, but definitely not a bandwagon.

Generally, voting for someone means you want them killed. If you think someone merits one vote, they just as well merit a bandwagon of them. I don't know if I'm making any sense at all.


EDIT: x-ed with Nog, a big Lommy and a host of phantoms

[the phantom]

Well, too bad. I can only assume the kill was due to Shasta appearing to be innocent to several people? And before anyone even goes there, it doesn't make Nog look bad and I don't even think the baddies intended the kill as a frame-up.

That would be just ridiculous, requiring us to believe that as a Seer Shasta would've acted the way he did upon finding a guilty Nogrod, which makes no sense at all given the set-up of this game. There are far too many of us that know Shasta to fall for that, and I can't see any way that the baddies would think that would fly.

So basically I think he was killed because he looked innocent and there was an off chance he was a Lover or Glorfy. Because really would there be any clues to that? Why would there be?

Commentary on yesterday to come....

(x-post Daughter)

[the phantom]

Just a fun fact- if I were the Wolves I would've just killed the people I thought were most likely to peek at the Dead Thread, as that would be the most obvious way the Goodies could gain a nice upper hand in this thread. Yeah- I'm not very trusting.

(That's NOT a shot at Shasta's honor! Just a thought that I had earlier today.)

[the phantom]

First, some thoughts I jotted down during my reread of yesterday.

The following were definitely doing some gameplay yesterday (if you know what I mean)-
Anguirel
Nogrod
Boromir

At this time I'm leaning solidly towards Ang and Nog as good-guys and Boro as a baddie.

In general the other players seemed to be doing less purposeful manipulation, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get vibes from them.

In my readthrough I didn't feel so bad about that lynch from yesterday, but I guess maybe we'll learn about that soon enough. Fea is good. So is Shasta (but that's rather an obvious conclusion now). I don't feel good about Mith, and possibly Nessa, but I don't have experience with her so I'm not certain. I still don't like Lommy, and possibly Greenie, but my feeling on her is somewhat based upon Lommy.

I'm very very curious about Agan. She seems to be extremely locked in, and yet it didn't seem to me that she was invested in the game. Sort of like a robot playing, you know? I never felt for a second she was up to anything at all good or bad. It was weird. Has anyone ever seen her like that?

Other people I'm mostly undecided on. And now I'm going to do a vote analysis and see if anyone looks good or bad based upon that.

[the phantom]

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Shasta ++ Shasta
Manwe ++ Green
Daughter ++ Nog (3)
Nessa ++ Legate
Fea ++ Nerwen
Lottie ++ Manwe (2)
Boro ++ Legate (2)
Glirdan ++ Lommy (2)
Ang ++ Manwe (3)
Nerwen ++ Manwe (4)
Mith ++ Legate (3)
Phantom ++ Manwe (5)

Well, that's yesterday's voting. Given the fact that we do not know Manwe's affiliation, it's extremely difficult to speculate. If he's evil than obviously Nerwen and Ang look quite good. If he's innocent and Nog, Legate, or Lommy is guilty, then Nerwen and Ang don't look good. If none of the lead candidates were Wolves then votes could be hidden anywhere.

Meh. I don't like not knowing roles after death. Makes things difficult.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Are you hinting something about yourself phantom????

Ha ha, no, I haven't read the Dead Thread. By habit I clicked on it when Rikae first put it up, but I stopped reading immediately when I read the opening lines, which said something along the lines of "If you're alive stop reading now!"

In talking before the game I mentioned that it would be a great temptation for me given that I would feel certain that other people were reading it and thus gaining an advantage against me, but I gave my word not to read it, and so I won't.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle.

I don't follow your point. The Wolves knew Shasta wasn't a Wolf, and that's all they can know. What I'm saying is that they'd have no reason whatsoever to assume he was the Seer that spotted an evil Nog, because given this game set up do you think for a minute that he would've behaved so had that been the case? They killed him for some other reason. Now, you might perhaps say that it might've entered into their minds, "Ooo, maybe the village will go for Nog as a side-effect", but I doubt that they'd be that deluded.

[the phantom]

My "grrr" at you Mith and my bad feeling about you is due to the fact that you waited so long to vote for reasons unknown, and up until then you had given little indication as to which way you were going. If you were purposefully trying to cause an accidental multiple lynch that's precisely the way to get it done.

I was extremely irritated because as the deadline ticked closer I was getting very worried that you'd force me to miss the deadline or cross-vote with you and another person who hadn't voted yet and cause a massive pile-up.

You don't have to vote the way I want you to. I don't care- go your own way. That's fine. But when we're in the final minutes and you're not telling me who you won't vote for and who you might vote for I sort of assume that you're hoping for a crash.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I don't feel good about Mith.

Why becasue I wouldn't do what you told me to? Well if that is the case get used to it. Few things annoy me more in this context is being told how to vote especially if they haven't committed themselves. Don't trust you enough yet to let myself be so maniputlated so get used to not feeling good or put your money where your mouth is. Don't seee how your feeling constitutes evidence unles we are doing divination by the examination of entrails and there are enough of those around already. Grr yourself.

[Nerwen]

First Dobbin and now– my priceless treasure! Why?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Manwe was an all too easy bandwaggon lynch and was lynched with no reason other then his bantering....well, from what I remember anyways, I'll have to go back and read his posts and the ones concerning him.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.

Hmmn. We know even less about Manwe's role and yet you're quite ready to call him an "easy bandwaggon lynch". Do you see the contradiction?

EDIT:X'd with phantom.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by phantom

Just a fun fact- if I were the Wolves I would've just killed the people I thought were most likely to peek at the Dead Thread, as that would be the most obvious way the Goodies could gain a nice upper hand in this thread. Yeah- I'm not very trusting.

Are you hinting something about yourself phantom????

To be honest, I'm kind of quite surprised by yesterDay's lynch. Manwe was an all too easy bandwaggon lynch and was lynched with no reason other then his bantering....well, from what I remember anyways, I'll have to go back and read his posts and the ones concerning him.

Originally Posted by phantom

And before anyone even goes there, it doesn't make Nog look bad and I don't even think the baddies intended the kill as a frame-up.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.

I will be around for a little while longer, but then have to go to bed as I work in the morning.