Tolkienian Heroes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

PrinceOfTheHalflings · 01-25-2011, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marky Lazer

Hello all, it's been a hell of a long time since I've been here... But good to be back!

I'm about to write a dissertation on Tolkien for my English master; isn't that cool? I'm thinking about comparing some of Tolkien's heroes with old English heroes. For example Beowulf. Some of his action compare to Aragorn and Túrin, too, I think. Anyone has some hints and tips perhaps?

Aragorn and Beowulf make for a good comparison.

You could do worse than to read this:

http://we-are-not-long-here.blogspot...her-essay.html

Galadriel55 · 01-25-2011, 06:25 AM

Welcome back, MarkyLazer!

You could also compare Robin Hood to Turin or some more fitting character.

Marky Lazer · 01-25-2011, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Aragorn and Beowulf make for a good comparison.

You could do worse than to read this:

http://we-are-not-long-here.blogspot...her-essay.html

Thanks for that

Pitchwife · 01-25-2011, 01:58 PM

Welcome back, Marky - pleased to meet another spectre of Elder Days!

That essay PotH linked to is indeed nice, but it fails to mention Aragorn's mental fight with Sauron via the Palantir and his passing through the Paths of the Dead, both of which I consider his greatest heroic deeds - that's where he comes into his own in my opinion and starts acting like a king even before he was crowned.

Since the essay also mentions Roland, I think he could be more fittingly compared to Boromir than Aragorn (who would then fill the role of Charlemagne), at least as far as their deaths are concerned. But as Roland is a French rather than English hero, I don't know how much help that'll be to you.

Marky Lazer · 01-26-2011, 05:30 AM

That essay has some useful information, though it comments only on the shortcomings on Beowulf and Roland (have read both), but it fails to see Aragorn's shortcomings. The Path of Dead, for example. It turned out great, but walking off from an important battle, not knowing whether you return is very unkinglike (if that's a word) in the same way Beowulf went off to fight the dragon (he was king already at that point). Beowulf was the best king "ever" and jeopardises the good fortune of his folk going off on such a dangerous feat. Even though Aragorn wasn't king yet, the people already saw him as one, and dashing off into the Path of the Dead, with chances of never returning, is dodgy still, no matter whether it was the right choice in the end (because none could have predicted that at the time he made his decision).

Estelyn Telcontar · 01-26-2011, 09:25 AM

Interesting thoughts, Marky, but there's another factor involved in the episode of Aragorn and the Paths of the Dead: the prophecy that told him to use them. He may have made a "mistake" as far as superficial military planning was concerned, but the whole War of the Ring was more a spiritual endeavour than a military one, or rather, the military effort was only one part of the whole. When a hero's story is told on a mythical level, his actions go deeper than modern thinking would perceive them.

Pitchwife · 01-26-2011, 03:18 PM

Quite the contrary, I'd say, Marky. If he was running off from one important battle (which he knew would be taken care of by Gandalf and Théoden), it was only in order to run towards another, no less crucial battle. He knew about the Corsair fleet approaching Pelargir via the Palantír, and that had to be dealt with as well. The Paths of the Dead were his only hope to not only reach Pelargir in time but also raise an army on the way that was strong enough to counter that threat. True, it was a dangerous path, but as Esty has pointed out, he knew he was meant to take it and he, as Isildur's heir, was the only one who could command the Dead. Anything but a military mistake!

Marky Lazer · 01-27-2011, 09:08 AM

But it isn't about what Aragorn believes, is it?

Beowulf believed he did the right thing going back years later to slay the dragon (but it didn't turn out so great, leaving an entire people kingless).

The people, the common soldiers who need to fight alongside Aragorn, see him walking off into the Paths of the Dead, to them that equals certain death. The morale of the troops would collapse, now that this fellow walks off and takes with him them two outlandish heroes as well that did so well in previous skirmishes. That's how he jeopardises the outcome of the battle.

In many texts we can see the benefits of the king being present on the battlefield. As long as he or a prince or an important general fights alongside us, we feel better and fight better, no?

01-25-2011, 06:25 AM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,497	Welcome back, MarkyLazer! You could also compare Robin Hood to Turin or some more fitting character. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

01-25-2011, 01:58 PM	#4
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Welcome back, Marky - pleased to meet another spectre of Elder Days! That essay PotH linked to is indeed nice, but it fails to mention Aragorn's mental fight with Sauron via the Palantir and his passing through the Paths of the Dead, both of which I consider his greatest heroic deeds - that's where he comes into his own in my opinion and starts acting like a king even before he was crowned. Since the essay also mentions Roland, I think he could be more fittingly compared to Boromir than Aragorn (who would then fill the role of Charlemagne), at least as far as their deaths are concerned. But as Roland is a French rather than English hero, I don't know how much help that'll be to you. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

01-26-2011, 05:30 AM	#5
Marky Lazer Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 82	That essay has some useful information, though it comments only on the shortcomings on Beowulf and Roland (have read both), but it fails to see Aragorn's shortcomings. The Path of Dead, for example. It turned out great, but walking off from an important battle, not knowing whether you return is very unkinglike (if that's a word) in the same way Beowulf went off to fight the dragon (he was king already at that point). Beowulf was the best king "ever" and jeopardises the good fortune of his folk going off on such a dangerous feat. Even though Aragorn wasn't king yet, the people already saw him as one, and dashing off into the Path of the Dead, with chances of never returning, is dodgy still, no matter whether it was the right choice in the end (because none could have predicted that at the time he made his decision). __________________ There are two kind of people. Those who have read Tolkien, and those who are going to read Tolkien.

01-26-2011, 09:25 AM	#6
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Interesting thoughts, Marky, but there's another factor involved in the episode of Aragorn and the Paths of the Dead: the prophecy that told him to use them. He may have made a "mistake" as far as superficial military planning was concerned, but the whole War of the Ring was more a spiritual endeavour than a military one, or rather, the military effort was only one part of the whole. When a hero's story is told on a mythical level, his actions go deeper than modern thinking would perceive them. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-26-2011, 03:18 PM	#7
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Quite the contrary, I'd say, Marky. If he was running off from one important battle (which he knew would be taken care of by Gandalf and Théoden), it was only in order to run towards another, no less crucial battle. He knew about the Corsair fleet approaching Pelargir via the Palantír, and that had to be dealt with as well. The Paths of the Dead were his only hope to not only reach Pelargir in time but also raise an army on the way that was strong enough to counter that threat. True, it was a dangerous path, but as Esty has pointed out, he knew he was meant to take it and he, as Isildur's heir, was the only one who could command the Dead. Anything but a military mistake! __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

01-27-2011, 09:08 AM	#8
Marky Lazer Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 82	But it isn't about what Aragorn believes, is it? Beowulf believed he did the right thing going back years later to slay the dragon (but it didn't turn out so great, leaving an entire people kingless). The people, the common soldiers who need to fight alongside Aragorn, see him walking off into the Paths of the Dead, to them that equals certain death. The morale of the troops would collapse, now that this fellow walks off and takes with him them two outlandish heroes as well that did so well in previous skirmishes. That's how he jeopardises the outcome of the battle. In many texts we can see the benefits of the king being present on the battlefield. As long as he or a prince or an important general fights alongside us, we feel better and fight better, no? __________________ There are two kind of people. Those who have read Tolkien, and those who are going to read Tolkien.