Edith is to Luthien as JRRT is to... Beren? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legolas · 01-17-2011, 11:52 PM

Hm, kind of. If Edith was his Luthien, JRR is Beren by default. There are some similarities on each side.

I don't think Tolkien would've been the sort to brag on himself, even if thought himself to be as brave or loyal as Beren. But if Luthien was to be written as such a great character, he couldn't have her falling in love with a lazy, cowardly jerk, could he?

What I mostly meant to say was that though the story isn't an allegory - it's not at all supposed to be a complete metaphorical representation - it was still strongly inspired by Edith and their relationship. Because that was the inspiration, the two relationships shared some of the same circumstances: a fleeting glimpse at the beginning, followed by a time apart; a parental figure disgruntled by their relationship; being forced apart again soon after meeting a second time; one healing the other's wounds.

Pitchwife poses an interesting question. Apart from catching Luthien's attention not backing down from Thingol's challenge, Beren didn't seem to accomplish much on his own after they met. Was that aspect of their story also manifested in JRR and Edith's story in some way? The healing he spoke of in the letter is an example. I'm sure there are more.

Galadriel55 · 01-18-2011, 06:23 AM

Maybe JRRT felt that Edith was his support and inspiration, and without her he wouldn't be able to do anything.

Formendacil · 01-18-2011, 10:08 AM

It's also worth noting that although Beren gets a fairly impressive lineage in the Silmarillion, as well as a fairly heroic backstory in his pre-Doriath exploits, these parts of the tale were not part of the original Tale of Tinúviel, but came with the development in the Silmarillion post-Lost Tales.

In any case, in both the original Lost Tale and in the final form as we have it approximated in the Silmarillion, the key thing to note about Beren is that, in contrast to Lúthien, he does not compare. This is, in fact, more strongly emphasised in the later versions of the tale, where Lúthien's greatness is increased as Thingol and Melian's realm of Doriath and personal power and wisdom are increased--and as the frequency of the Ainur having children decreases. Beren may be the Heir of Bëor and one of Barahir's heroic, desperate band... but as Thingol points out to him, he is a mere mortal, and is not Lúthien's peer in any way save love.

Tolkien also emphasises that it is only because of love and some gift of Fate that Beren wins Lúthien's hand. This has already been noted with regard to how little Beren actually does in winning the Silmaril--mostly just getting into scrapes that need rescuing. Even where Fate sets him clearly apart, such as by finding his way through the Girdle of Melian, this is not because of any merit on his part, but because some higher power gave him a magnificent fortune he did not deserve.

As far as that goes, I think it's easy then to see how Tolkien saw himself in Beren's shoes. The love they won was one they did not really deserve (as Tolkien saw it), one that was only made possible through unmerited love and fate.

Of course, it is ridiculous to try and find biographical points of similarity between Tolkien and Beren, anymore than between Edith and Lúthien--or, for that matter, between WWII and the War of the Ring. It's looking for allegory where one should be recognising inspiration. Tolkien felt himself the luckiest man in the world to win the woman he loved against odds that said he should not--and one may assume Beren felt the same. Certainly, this inspired the Tale of Tinúviel, but that does not mean that an inspired tale will share the details of what inspired it--inspiration means that it is the spirit of something that is taken from the original, not the externals.

morwen edhelwen · 02-06-2011, 09:50 PM

Hi! Morwen here! Yeah I agree.. but there is the point that he could not marry her at first and Edith's family disapproved of him because of their religious differences.. Protestant and Catholic... hugely significant in in 1900s England... and Beren was a "mere mortal", so maybe Tolkien created Beren because he saw Edith as "more than human"?
It's the romance aspect.
_Morwen.

Dilettante · 02-13-2011, 07:40 PM

I'd never known what Edith looked like until I saw the linked photo above. I think she was quite beautiful...and her eyes are very...stunning.

I was going to mention the story about the two of them walking in the woods and Edith's dancing being the inspiration for the first meeting of Beren and Luthien but Legoas has already mentioned it.

Legolas said...

Quote:

I don't think Tolkien would've been the sort to brag on himself, even if thought himself to be as brave or loyal as Beren. But if Luthien was to be written as such a great character, he couldn't have her falling in love with a lazy, cowardly jerk, could he?

True, not only would that not make a good story, we would think less of Luthien if she did. She would be some pathetic, desperate girl falling in love with the first man that came her way. I certainly don't think JRT would have thought that, or put Edith in that light. He probably considered himself (as Formendacil has stated) fortunate to be chosen by her.

Quote:

but as Thingol points out to him, he is a mere mortal, and is not Lúthien's peer in any way save love.

Well....what daddy hasn't frowned upon any man their little girl brings home, insisting that no one is good enough for their 'princess'? Humans do it too, not just elf-kings.

Certainly, the tale of Beren and Luthien is not biographical. Certainly there are many similarities between their story and that of Beren and Luthien. Not everything is exact because it was a story BASED on actual events, not an exhaustive retelling of such events. (That would probably get boring.) Why is Beren a 'mere' mortal? Why is Luthien the most beautiful of all the Eldar? I see this story as the confession of a man who loves and is loved by the most beautiful woman in the world (to him) who certainly doesn't feel like he deserves her, but despite all odds is at last able to be with her. The best way he sees to tell the world that story is with a tale like this.

Really, how much more romantic can you get?

Galadriel55 · 02-14-2011, 06:13 AM

Thank you, all! These are all good points!

01-17-2011, 11:52 PM	#1
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Hm, kind of. If Edith was his Luthien, JRR is Beren by default. There are some similarities on each side. I don't think Tolkien would've been the sort to brag on himself, even if thought himself to be as brave or loyal as Beren. But if Luthien was to be written as such a great character, he couldn't have her falling in love with a lazy, cowardly jerk, could he? What I mostly meant to say was that though the story isn't an allegory - it's not at all supposed to be a complete metaphorical representation - it was still strongly inspired by Edith and their relationship. Because that was the inspiration, the two relationships shared some of the same circumstances: a fleeting glimpse at the beginning, followed by a time apart; a parental figure disgruntled by their relationship; being forced apart again soon after meeting a second time; one healing the other's wounds. Pitchwife poses an interesting question. Apart from catching Luthien's attention not backing down from Thingol's challenge, Beren didn't seem to accomplish much on his own after they met. Was that aspect of their story also manifested in JRR and Edith's story in some way? The healing he spoke of in the letter is an example. I'm sure there are more. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. Last edited by Legolas; 11-24-2011 at 10:33 AM. Reason: typo

01-18-2011, 06:23 AM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,454	Maybe JRRT felt that Edith was his support and inspiration, and without her he wouldn't be able to do anything. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

01-18-2011, 10:08 AM	#3
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	It's also worth noting that although Beren gets a fairly impressive lineage in the Silmarillion, as well as a fairly heroic backstory in his pre-Doriath exploits, these parts of the tale were not part of the original Tale of Tinúviel, but came with the development in the Silmarillion post-Lost Tales. In any case, in both the original Lost Tale and in the final form as we have it approximated in the Silmarillion, the key thing to note about Beren is that, in contrast to Lúthien, he does not compare. This is, in fact, more strongly emphasised in the later versions of the tale, where Lúthien's greatness is increased as Thingol and Melian's realm of Doriath and personal power and wisdom are increased--and as the frequency of the Ainur having children decreases. Beren may be the Heir of Bëor and one of Barahir's heroic, desperate band... but as Thingol points out to him, he is a mere mortal, and is not Lúthien's peer in any way save love. Tolkien also emphasises that it is only because of love and some gift of Fate that Beren wins Lúthien's hand. This has already been noted with regard to how little Beren actually does in winning the Silmaril--mostly just getting into scrapes that need rescuing. Even where Fate sets him clearly apart, such as by finding his way through the Girdle of Melian, this is not because of any merit on his part, but because some higher power gave him a magnificent fortune he did not deserve. As far as that goes, I think it's easy then to see how Tolkien saw himself in Beren's shoes. The love they won was one they did not really deserve (as Tolkien saw it), one that was only made possible through unmerited love and fate. Of course, it is ridiculous to try and find biographical points of similarity between Tolkien and Beren, anymore than between Edith and Lúthien--or, for that matter, between WWII and the War of the Ring. It's looking for allegory where one should be recognising inspiration. Tolkien felt himself the luckiest man in the world to win the woman he loved against odds that said he should not--and one may assume Beren felt the same. Certainly, this inspired the Tale of Tinúviel, but that does not mean that an inspired tale will share the details of what inspired it--inspiration means that it is the spirit of something that is taken from the original, not the externals. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

02-14-2011, 06:13 AM	#6
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,454	Thank you, all! These are all good points! __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

02-06-2011, 09:50 PM	#4
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	Hi! Morwen here! Yeah I agree.. but there is the point that he could not marry her at first and Edith's family disapproved of him because of their religious differences.. Protestant and Catholic... hugely significant in in 1900s England... and Beren was a "mere mortal", so maybe Tolkien created Beren because he saw Edith as "more than human"? It's the romance aspect. _Morwen.