Religious Background of Middle Earth

[Flame of Udûn]

I have known for a while now the religious connotations within Tolkien's writing but it appears to me that while everyone always talks about its links to christianity it seems that it is more closely linked to the old Norse religions and I shall list my reasons:

1. There are many god like beings (the Valar/Æsir and Maiar/Vanir) and of course in Christianity there is only one god but in Norse paganism there are many (Odin, Thor... etc)
2. There is a great battle to be fought against Morgoth at the end of the world (Dagor Dagorath) when he frees himself from his prison- this is basically an altered form of Ragnarok the battle in which Loki led an army against the Gods and the world was destroyed when a Fire deamon set fire to Yggdrasil (the tree of life) another link is that both of these battles were predicted though I cannot remember who predicted ragnarok
3. The gods ruled in a land that was seperate from Middle Earth (which is coincidentally the name vikings had for earth (Midgard) as it lay between Asgard and Hel though there were others)
4. This is a weak link but i will list it anyway Valhalla is a hall where half the warriors slain in battle go which is somewhat similar to the halls of Mandos

Discuss

ps. I'm sure this has been debated before but who really cares

[Inziladun]

This has indeed been discussed before, though I was regrettably unable to participate there.

I would generally agree that LOTR and its associated works are not wholly Christian. Tolkien, being familiar with a wide variety of myths and legends, as well as being a devout Catholic, certainly poured elements of different traditions into his story, and those knowledgeable in those respective elements will tend to see them, sometimes even when they aren't really there.

That said, your assertion that that the "one God" aspect is missing from the stories is, I think, incorrect.

Eru Ilúvatar is the Prime Creator in the mythos. All that is, including the "divine" Valar and Maiar, were created by him. The Valar are the "governors" of Arda; their task to see that Ilúvatar's will and purposes are served. The same could be said for the "angels" of Christianity. The duties of the latter are also to serve the One God, though they do not take an active role in the "governance" of our world, according to the Bible.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Flame of Udûn

I have known for a while now the religious connotations within Tolkien's writing but it appears to me that while everyone always talks about its links to christianity it seems that it is more closely linked to the old Norse religions and I shall list my reasons:

I guess it varies, for example myself, I have more heard it the other way around, but I would say it is both, and that much is clear. Even Tolkien himself had said it in some of his letters, interviews, etc., etc. Tolkien was using the Germanic and Norse (and other, to a lesser extent) mythology as a source, even unconsciously sometimes probably, but of course, as a Christian, he was also using the Christian picture (possibly more unconsciously than the Germanic mythology, at least even he seems to imply that he realised that only later).

But yea, I think there is something to discuss, and even though it's been discussed probably many times, like you say, why not...

1. There are many god like beings (the Valar/Æsir and Maiar/Vanir) and of course in Christianity there is only one god but in Norse paganism there are many (Odin, Thor... etc)

Of course, this one can be disputed. "God-like beings" they definitely are, but not really equivalent to the Christian God, they are indeed more like the Norse gods and so on. Eru, however, can be clearly paralelled to the Christian God. On the other hand, the question is whether Valar can really be called "gods" even to the extent as e.g. Odin, Thor etc. were. Because Valar - or Ainur in general - are subject to Eru (whereas those aren't) and in fact, they are not so much of rulers, certainly not in the later Ages, and they act more like "stewards" of Arda. Some parallelled them to angels in Christianity and that actually sounds to me a lot closer than paralleling them to Odin etc., at least when it comes to their role and status.

2. There is a great battle to be fought against Morgoth at the end of the world (Dagor Dagorath) when he frees himself from his prison- this is basically an altered form of Ragnarok the battle in which Loki led an army against the Gods and the world was destroyed when a Fire deamon set fire to Yggdrasil (the tree of life) another link is that both of these battles were predicted though I cannot remember who predicted ragnarok

That one is definitely a close inspiration, although Dagor Dagorath was not entirely filled into the finished "canon". But yes. It is true however, that the tale of a battle at the end of times exists in broad range of mythologies, many of them completely unrelated to the Germanic one, and even in Christianity there are echoes of such things e.g. in the idea of the battle of Armageddon and so on. But many mythologies have such a "final battle", although Tolkien probably was thinking of Ragnarok as being culturally the "closest" to him.

3. The gods ruled in a land that was seperate from Middle Earth (which is coincidentally the name vikings had for earth (Midgard) as it lay between Asgard and Hel though there were others)

Gods basically always rule a land separate from the mortals. And Valinor over the Sea hints probably more to the sort of Irish or whatnot mythologies (I am not so well-versed in those, perhaps somebody else can be more concrete). The name is of course the same, although Tolkien, I believe, said in some interview that he did not intend this as a parallel, but that he simply translated from archaic to modern language the word for "world" (inhabited by humans) as it was understood by that time.

4. This is a weak link but i will list it anyway Valhalla is a hall where half the warriors slain in battle go which is somewhat similar to the halls of Mandos

Similar indeed, but once again, I would say that Valhalla is not really much reminiscent of Mandos. Mandos is the halls of waiting, more or less, but far more similar actually to some images of the Greek Hades (but just some - those of waiting, not anything to do with punishment), or even of the Hebrew Sheol (which was more like this dull place of grey, more fitting for how I imagine Mandos).

But yea, interesting topic and thread... looking forward to what people could say here...

[Flame of Udûn]

I didn't meant to assert that there was no single creator (of course Eru made the Valar and was the commander of the song that created the world). I did not mention him because I was looking at how the mythology fits in with that of the Norse rather than how it is similar to Christianity (eg. Melkor's fall being similar to that of satan). Despite Eru being very similar to the Christian God this does not in my opinion move the Valar to a position lower than that of the viking gods for in viking mythology the gods did not in fact create the universe they did however fashion it from the body parts of a dead giant that Odin slew. This to me is reasonably similar to the creation of the universe in ME except within the Viking mythology there is not a creator for Odin and his two brothers (the rest of the gods are descendants of these three) they are the grandsons of a male human type creature (obviously cannot be human reallyseing as they are gods) and he was licked out of the ice by a cow who also gave him sustinence in her milk.

[Alfirin]

Certainly, many of the character in ME are very reminiscent of characters from Norse mythology. Caracaroth, for example, has a lot in commom with Fenrir, right down to biting off someones hand (In Caracaroth's case, Beren, in Fenrir's, Tyr). Somewhat more tenuously, Roac (the Raven in the Hobbit) may have something in common with Hugin and Munin, Odin's messenger ravens. As the head of basically demons of fire Gothmog (the Balrog, not the Nazgul) may have its orgins in Surtur, lord of Muspelheim. At least that how I see some of it

[Formendacil]

My general take on the matter is that in the "physics" of Middle-earth, to use the word somewhat unorthodoxly, Tolkien went with a most Nordic look, feel, and air. He says as much himself, and a quick glance at the mythology he borrows from and his lifelong interests corroborate the story readily.

However, in the metaphysics of Middle-earth (here, however, I use the word somewhat more conventionally), I would say he hies closer to the Catholic side of things. This Catholicity doesn't come through very much in the externals (the "physics") of the stories, but I think it's there in what underlies them: in things like the Long Defeat/Eucatastrophe relationship, the goodness of Matter mixed with its corruption by the Prime Evil, and idea of a historically-grounded redemption.