The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, Galin!

I will have to look into the name issue some more, but as far as I can tell you are correct. My memory is a bit hazy on some of these issues. Glancing at the Name Changes thread, though, I noticed that in fact we had (at my suggestion!) already settled on "Amros" rather than "Amras". I'm less clear on the Amrod vs. Amarthan point, as (alas) I still don't have any of the Vinyar Tengwar (maybe those ought to go on my Hanukkah/Christmas wish-list).

However, my point here was simply that it is Amras/Amros who is alive and well in Beleriand at this point and Amrod/Amarthan who died at Losgar, and not the other way around.

[Galin]

Oops Aiwendil, yes I was essentially agreeing with you regarding the basic question I quoted.

I guess I could have made that clear enough without blathering on so much about the Amrod/Amarthan question, it's just that this question is one I have mused about myself.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

First, a general comment on the text: There is a lot of jumping back and forth between QS and GA here. This is to be expected, given the textual situation, and I think that for the most part it is skilfully done; but I worry a little that in trying to provide as complete and detailed an account as we can, we may be slicing up Tolkien's prose too indiscriminately. In particular, I think we must be careful not to use additions from other sources merely for the sake of added verbiage, but only when some substantive detail is gained. I will try to point out specific places where this is an issue.

Agreed. In reading what I did in this chapter I observed my self that I have only technically tried to minimise the amount of editorial interference. That led exactly to the results you describe.

RB-DB-01: Agreed we take your suggestion.

RB-DB-06.5: §134 ... {Third}[Fourth]: Good catch.

RB-DB-07: I thought it might be helpful because the last time we have heard of Glaurung before, we were told that he was not yet full grown. But the addition might be considered superficial.

§137: In this case I do not agree fully to your suggestion. In the first sentence it is better to take up GA fully, but I would still keep the first half sentence from the QS. And in the rest of the paragraph I think we loss a good deal of information by only taking one source.

§137 The sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin] bore most heavily the brunt of the assaultRB-DB-08 {, and Angrod and Egnor were slain; and Bregolas son of Bëor, who was lord of that house of Men after his father's death, was slain beside them. In that battle King Inglor Felagund was }. <GA In the assault upon the defences of Dorthonion Angrod and {Egnor}[Aegnor], sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], fell, and with them Bregolas RB-DB-09 <LQ2 , son of Bregor, who was lord of the house of Bëor after Boromir his father's death> was slain and a great part of the warriors of Beor's folk. But Barahir his brother was in the fighting further westward nigh the passes of Sirion. There King {Inglor}[Finrod] Felagund, hastening from the south, was defeated> and cut off from his folk and surrounded RB-DB-12 { by the Orcs}<GA with small company in the Fen of Serech> RB-DB-13 <LQ1 betwixt Mithrim and Dorthonion>, and he would have been slain or taken, but Barahir son of {Bëor}[Bregor] came up with his men and rescued him, and made a wall of spears about him; and they cut their way out of the battle with great loss. Thus Felagund escaped RB-DB-14 {and went south to Nargothrond, his deep fortress prepared against the evil day}; {but}[and] he swore an oath of abiding friendship and aid in every need unto Barahir and all his kin and seed, and in token of his vow he gave to Barahir his ring RB-DB-15 <GA , an heirloom of his house>. RB-DB-16 <GA Then {Inglor}[Finrod] went south to Nargothrond RB-DB-17 <QS , his deep fortress prepared against the evil day>, but Barahir returned to Dorthonion to save what he could of the people of Bëor.>

§141: Changed.

RD-DB-24: Agreed, we take the addition out.

{Damrod and Diriel}[Amros] it will be.

§143: I did not observe the chronology issue. But I am reluctant to skip all that nice interpretation why Tol Sirion was the last fortress attacked in that battle. Also I see some info in QS that is missing in GA. Some examples in detail (No. are take from the text below):
RD-DB-25.5: That Glaurung was shy of the River Sirion at this time is a motive not given eles were. Interesting that he is again in the eastern Battle in the Nirneath.
RD-DB-28: That Sauron was in command of Balrogs in this battle doth strength his position among the host of Morogth.
RD-DB-31.5: Well, this is new. I wish to keep the word 'necromancy'. As fare as I remember this is the only real connection you will get while reading the story of Middle-Earth chronological between Gorthaur of Beleriand and the Necromancer of the Mirkwood in The Hobbit. Even so the change might be called stylistic, I think it is important because we will have to live with The Hobbit as it is. I think connections should be strength if we can.
After RD-DB-32: That the final victory came by assault and not by siege is important, since it makes Orodreth escape much more feasible.
After RD-DB-33: The 'dark cloud of fear' is again a nice tie to the siege of Minas Tirith in The Lord of Rings. I think that should not be lost.
Within RD-DB-34: Orodreth is no longer Finrods brother, but his nephew. But I find 'Steward' the more fitting connection here.
RD-DB-35: Why should we loss this bridge to the future? Readers will remember this easier if we provide them with the information that it has influence in the future narrative. Now you could say that again I propose a stylistic change. But I think that I rather argue against a change with reasons of style. The difference is, that in Annals I would not expect such a style, in a 'Quenta' it is rather classical. And Tolkien is using this often in The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings.
Thus I would edit:

§143 For [b]RB-DB-25.5[B] {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way, for the time of his full strength was not come; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs. But RB-DB-26 {at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, }<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with RB-DB-28 {a host of} Balrogs. RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth. RB-DB-31 {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service. }He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master RB-DB-31.5 <moved from above of necromancy,> of shadows and of ghosts,> foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment. RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon Tolsirion.> He took {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] by assault, RB-DB-33 {the tower of {Inglor}[Finrod] upon the isle of Sirion,}<GA after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; RB-DB-34 <GA and Orodreth the {brother of Inglor}[Steward of Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten. RB-DB-35 <moved from aboveThus it came to pass that the people of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.>

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RB-DB-07: Adding the 'now' is a small change, and there's no real problem with it; but my inclination is that if Tolkien didn't feel the need to include it, we shouldn't either.

§137: You're right that there are some minor details in QS that would be nice to keep here. I think your suggestion is good, except that I would delete the last clause ('but Barahir returned . . .'), since the next paragraph in QS essentially says the same thing in much greater detail.

RD-DB-25.5: Findegil wrote:

That Glaurung was shy of the River Sirion at this time is a motive not given eles were. Interesting that he is again in the eastern Battle in the Nirneath.

I agree that this is interesting - but actually this raises a point I hadn't noticed before. In GA (and in our version) we have an earlier statement that Glaurung was now 'in his full might'. But the addition from QS here says that 'the time of his full strength was not come' and cites this as the reason he dared not approach the sources of the Sirion. I suppose we could simply remove this reference, even though it robs the explanation of its point to some extent:

For RB-DB-25.5 {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way{, for the time of his full strength was not come}; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs.

RD-DB-28:

That Sauron was in command of Balrogs in this battle doth strength his position among the host of Morogth.

On the other hand, one could argue that in GA, where Sauron apparently doesn't need the aid of Balrogs to capture Tol Sirion, he is more formidable. I suppose the question is whether the detail of the Balrogs was merely omitted in GA or whether Tolkien had decided that no Balrogs were present. Given the changing conception of Balrogs around this time, it seems to me that the latter is at least a strong possibility. So I'm still inclined to omit them here.

Also, it seems redundant to say that Orodreth was the warden of the tower here, since a few sentences later we say again that he held the fortress as the steward of Finrod.

RD-DB-31.5: My concern here is that Tolkien revised the passage in LQ1 and changed 'necromancy' to 'shadows and ghosts'. This may have been a mere stylistic change. It seems to me that in matters of style, we should always take Tolkien's revised version over earlier ones. I agree that making a connection to The Hobbit would be nice, but unless the revised version actually contradicted The Hobbit, I don't think we're justified in changing it.

That the final victory came by assault and not by siege is important, since it makes Orodreth escape much more feasible.

But Orodreth's escape occurs in GA, which is where the word 'besieged' is used. Insofar as there's any difference between the QS and GA versions of the battle, the GA version is later and should be kept. Concerning Orodreth's escape: my reading of GA is that he would not have escaped, because the fortress was besieged, if Celegorm and Curufin had not arrived and come to his aid (much like Barahir helping the Finrod escape from his entrapment earlier).

RB-DB-33: Agreed, the dark cloud of fear is a good detail missing from GA.

RB-DB-34: Agreed.

RB-DB-35: Well, one could argue that the future strife is actually implicitly foretold in the words 'for that time'. However, I see nothing wrong with adding the more explicit statement from QS.

My suggestion for this section, then, is;

§143 For RB-DB-25.5 {nearly two years}[for some time] the {Gnomes}[Noldor] still defended the west pass about the sources of Sirion, for the power of Ulmo was in that water, and {Golmund}[Glaurung] would not yet adventure that way{, for the time of his full strength was not come}; and {Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] withstood the Orcs. But RB-DB-26 {at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, }<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion; and Sauron his lieutenant {(who in Beleriand was named Gorsodh)} led that assault{,}[.]> RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth. RB-DB-31 {In Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service. }He was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of ghosts,> foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment. RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion]. And this they took after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; RB-DB-34 <GA and Orodreth the {brother of Inglor}[Steward of Finrod] who held it was driven out. There he would have been slain, but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin came up with their riders, and such other force as they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond. Thither also at last before the might of Sauron fled {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin with small following; and they were harboured in Nargothrond gratefully, and the griefs that lay between the houses of Finrod and Fëanor were for that time forgotten. RB-DB-35 <moved from aboveThus it came to pass that the people of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] swelled the strength of Felagund, but it would have been better, as after was seen, if they had remained in the East among their own kin.>
GA §154 But Sauron took {Minnas-tirith}[Minas Tirith] and made it into a watch-tower for Morgoth, and filled it with evil{; for he was a sorcerer and a master of phantoms and terror}.And the fair isle of {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion] became accursed and was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Isle of Werewolves; for Sauron fed many of these evil things.>

[gondowe]

Hello now my humble oppinion.

RB-DB-07 add "now".

RD-DB-31.5 add to GA information, "master of necromancy". So both texts

I think a fortress can be besieged first and then hardly assaulted. So both texts

RD-DB-28 agreed with Aiwendil.

Yes now I see Amros is better, more appropriately and later than Amras. I'm going to change it in my version.

Greetings

[Findegil]

RB-DB-07: Okay, we skip the 'now'.

§137: Agreed.

RB-DB-25.5: Your suggestion is good.

RB-DB-28: Interristing line of thinking. Looking at the beginning of the Battle were QS states two times that Balrogs were involved (see §134 before and behind RD-DB-05) this is not the case in GA §145.
And the same is true for QS §140 were it si said that 'the valour of the Elves and Men of the North, which neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome' which is missing from GA §147.
In GA Balrogs are not mentioned at all in this Battle.
Cosequently this would be again a case of 'By By, Balrogs'!

I agree about Orordreth and teh reduntance of him beeing The Warden of the Tower.

RB-DB-31.5: Okay, okay, yes it would be against our rules. And in addition it si redundant since a master of necromancy is a master of shadows and ghosts.

After RD-DB-32: I don't think that there is realy a diference in the course of the battle in QS and GA at this point at least non that we cold find. In QS Sauron 'took Minastirith by assault' and that is all we get. In GASaurons 'host broke through and besieged ... Minas Trirth ... and this they took after bitter fighting, and Orodreth ... was driven out.' You simply can not drive some one out by a siege. Either the besiged makes an excrusion or you make an assault. From what we have in QS I thought it would be better to make it explicit that the final victory was an assault and not and excrusion of the defenders gone a miss.
Seeing that Orodreth was already driven out, I do not agree that Celegrom and Curufin rescued him like Barahir rescued Fealgund. The words in GA that the brethern 'stemmed the tide for a while' suggest for me rather that they rescued Orodreth during a flight in which he was hoplessly outnumbered and in danger to be overrun simply by a very fast advance of his enemy. I picture the situation of Orodreth like this: He had only a very small host left. The when they drove him out the enemy was directly on his heels. When he would have turned to defend his retreat the enemy would have closed him in. But the enemy was to near to run simply without defence. Thus he had no chance to escape with out help. What the cavalary of Celegrom and Curufin did was defending Orodreth retreat so that he cold lay the necessary distance between his host and the enemy and then they cold outrun the enemy because of the greater fastness of their mounted host.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, Gondowe!

RD-DB-07: Findegil agrees to leave out the "now", but Gondowe votes to add it. Again, it's ultimately not a very important point, but my preference remains to leave it out.

RD-DB-31.5: Again, Findegil agrees to adopt the revised version but Gondowe prefers to add in "master of necromancy". But here I think our principles clearly dictate the former approach.

RD-DB-32: You make a good argument, Findegil, concerning the course of the battle. My thinking was that an assault and a siege are not mutually exclusive - i.e. while the assault was being made, Sauron could still have some forces forming a perimeter around the island, preventing escape. Then when Orodreth was driven from the tower, he would still have been trapped within Sauron's siege-perimeter. This is where I imagined Celegorm and Curufin arriving, cutting through Sauron's lines, and providing Orodreth with a route of escape, while holding off any pursuit. However, re-reading the passage in GA I think that your version fits better.

Still, if (as we agree) the story in GA makes sense in itself and is essentially the same as the story in QS, why do we need to change the passage at all? In other words, if in the GA version Sauron already takes the fortress by assault (even if that particular word is not used), why do we need to add the statement that he took it by assault from QS?

[Findegil]

RD-DB-32:
Aiwendil wrote:

Still, if (as we agree) the story in GA makes sense in itself and is essentially the same as the story in QS, why do we need to change the passage at all? In other words, if in the GA version Sauron already takes the fortress by assault (even if that particular word is not used), why do we need to add the statement that he took it by assault from QS?

To transport the picture in the fullest version we can get? I would say neither GA nor QS gives a discription that is sufficient to get the understanding we have now. Both do not contradict what we know, but they both helped us understand what happend. I think that in this case it fits the overall goal of the project to mix both accounts.

Respectfuly
Findegil