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#1 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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My first thoughts on reading this were that it was a copyright matter - any letters/docs/personal photos from JRRT are copyright JRRT & his Estate. The Estate may simply being a bit precious. What I find curious is that the author has worked with Hilary Tolkien's family on this book, & from what I know of Angela Gardener via the Tolkien Society & buying books from Daeron's Books, I know it would have been an entirely respectful work, so I'm not sure what the Estate's objection could be, other than 'This our stuff & you can't use it!'
However, reading between the lines of the publisher's statement: Quote:
Which seems a bit much - stopping a book going ahead because it touched on the relationship between Tolkien & his brother from Hilary's perspective. I don't know if any more info will be released on the exact issues but I don't think we'll ever see the book in print now - after the Estate's recent victory over New Line they have a VERY lot of money for lawyers..... |
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#2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its.
Posts: 644
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That's just tragic. I would've much liked to see JRR a bit through the eyes of his family. (And also know more about his family.) Why must the Estate be so possessive?
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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As I haven't read the manuscript, it's hard to say precisely why the estate would block it, but I can see one legitimate reason. The book may be ostensibly about Hillary, but if it was overly emphasizing his relationship with JRRT, it could be argued by the estate that the author or publisher was using that connection as a sales hook, possibly to the point that the book was really indirect memoirs of JRRT more than a biography of the life of Hillary himself. Why, for instance, make a point of mentioning things like the autographed photo of JRRT? It would interest his fans and encourage them to buy a book they might otherwise not purchase. The estate's complaint may be one of misrepresentation, and is possibly legitimate. One would have to read the manuscript in order to know the truth, and as the public cannot make that judgment for itself at this time, the media can put whatever spin they like on the actions of the estate.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its.
Posts: 644
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You do have a point, Ibrin. I can definitely see the publishers using the Tolkien connection as a selling point. (And I realize my comment above falls under the Tolkien-fan-reading-his-brother's-bio-to-find-out-more-about-JRR category. So, case in point.)
As you said, one would need to read the manuscript to be sure, but (thinking about the aforementioned category), if even a part of their market is Tolkienites (which it certainly must be; one cannot possibly write a book about a Tolkien and not expect JRR's followers to jump on the bandwagon), they might, however unintentionally, skew it to be more a sideways biography of the Man himself rather than his brother, as advertised. In that case, I suppose the complaints of the Estate would be perfectly legitimate. I would expect that they might be willing to settle for royalties (I would, if it were me), but it may well be that they tried and the publisher refused. And of course we'll probably never know the real reasons. So, much as I would love to read a biography of Hilary, I suppose I can try for an all-sides view and see how the Estate might be unhappy about such a thing. P.S. Apologies for all the parentheticals.
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I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat. |
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#5 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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I doubt there would be many takers for the bio of an Evesham fruit farmer if he weren't JRR's brother. But I am suprised that they can stop it since there are so many unauthorised Celebrity bios that most people have to put up with.
Can you libel the dead? Surely copyright is the only thing? It dos seem a bit extreme especially when Gardener is such a mainstay of Oxonmoot and the TS which is proud and protective of its relationship with the surviving family.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 274
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^^No, libel is only for the living.
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#7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
with Peter Ustinov, Mia Farrow, Angela Lansbury, etc. ![]()
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
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#8 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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I have - and not only that version but I can't get the significance ..I remember whodunnit and how but nothing in the motive for libel.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#9 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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Quote:
I can't believe that the book was so scandalous but you can't but wonder. I can't help thinking that this would have had a very limited circulation of fairly devoted fans at £30 a pop had they left well alone. What on earth was it that was so problematic
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#10 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Angela Gardener, the author, is a member of the downs (only one post so far http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...64&postcount=3), but she may not feel able to discuss the matter. Just so curious to know what the score is.
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#11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
then other countries? Or EU regulations. And if so could it be published in other countries (U.S., Canada, Australia)? Btw, I'd like to read a bio like this, but at 60+ dollars.....
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
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#12 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Quote:
I've linked to an interview with the illustrator, Jeff Murray, on Tolkien Library, but that page includes a link to Amazon uk for ordering the book. At either ₤7 or ₤9, it's hardly pricey. There's a bit of explanation, too, of the provenance of the material. Quote:
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Even medieval studies--which are in the dialects of middle English and look recognisable to modern English readers--are being lost because not many wish to undertake a rigorous training in reading old literature these days. ![]() Also, with recent translations such as Seamus Heaney's there's less need for another, even one from a pre-eminent OE scholar. Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#13 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 120
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Quote:
What the Estate can't do is simply block bios of members of the Tolkien family - it doesn't matter how many fancy lawyers you have if your case has no legal substance - sure, the Estate can issue injunctions against books they don't like, but there are loads of Tolkien related books being published every year, so it's not like they block everything. I'm puzzling over the argument that the book was a "misrepresentation". Normally, if the book represents "false claims" or "false advertising" (eg, a book about JRRT masquerading as being about Hilary) then that would be a matter for the UK Advertising Standards Authority and also perhaps the Office of Fair Trading. There is certainly no obvious basis for a civil lawsuit - unless the authors of the book signed a contract with the Estate regarding the use of certain materials owned by the Estate. The Estate may be complaining that they were deceived as to the nature of the book when they (the Estate) agreed to the use of those materials. In fact, that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. |
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#14 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2
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As authors who have worked with the Tolkien Estate in producing books containing copyrighted material, and are known to contribute to Tolkien fan forums, we have been asked to forward the following official statement:
Statement of the Tolkien Estate - Wheelbarrows at Dawn The J R R Tolkien Estate has been made aware of a statement by ADC Publications concerning its cancellation of its proposed publication Wheelbarrows at Dawn by Angela Gardner and Neil Holford. ADC's statement suggests that the publication has been cancelled as a result of the Tolkien Estate's threats to take court action preventing the release of the book. As this statement is highly misleading, the Tolkien Estate considers it important that the true facts be clarified for those concerned. The book in question was presented by ADC as a biography of J R R Tolkien's brother Hilary. However, the publication included numerous personal letters from J R R Tolkien to his brother and from other family members that were reproduced virtually verbatim. The copyright in these private, unpublished letters belongs to the Tolkien Estate. As the guardian of these rights and of the privacy of the Tolkien family, both of which it takes great care to protect, the Estate quite properly declined permission for the letters to be reproduced in this way. However, the Estate made clear to ADC that it had no issue with the publication of the book providing the material in question - affecting only 20 pages out of a total of some 300 - was removed. Although ADC's response was to agree to this, what it then did in practice was to paraphrase the letters, something that had been made clear from the outset would not resolve the issue. Despite the Estate's devoting considerable resource to helping ADC, not least by suggesting specific editorial changes which would meet its concerns, ADC then announced the cancellation of the book. ===== Wayne Hammond & Christina Scull |
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#15 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Thank you very much, Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull for providing that statement for the benefit of discussion here. Please thank the members of the Tolkien Estate as well for explaining their position.
I'm sure I speak for all Downers when I say we would be delighted to see Calcifer contribute to our discussions, particularly when we can benefit from your great expertise and wide knowledge of all things Tolkien. I am reading, slowly and carefully, through your Companion and Guide and have found it as refreshing and enlightening as any Ent draught.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#16 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Still not sure whether the issue is
a)Simply that the authors are paraphrasing the letters - ie its not about what the letters contain, but simply because the copyright on the material belongs to the Estate, & that they object on principle to its being used. Or b) Whether its because the letters contain information the Estate do not want to be published - but I suspect that if the content of the letters was along the lines of 'Dear Hilary, went into Birmingham today & had tea. It rained for a bit, but then the sun came out & made the whole place seem rather Elvish. Yours Ronald' then no-one at the Estate would be bothered if it was published. However, I accept that we'll never be told one way or the other, so further speculation seems pointless. Narfforc, via Facebook, made me aware of this novel 'Looking for the King: An Inklings Novel '[Hardcover] http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1586...pt#reader-link In it, Tolkien, Lewis & the other Inklings appear as supporting characters, & we've seen other novels where the same thing happens (ie 'Here, There Be Dragons (Chronicles of the Imaginarium Geographica' http://www.amazon.com/There-Dragons-...9942839&sr=1-1 ). I begin to feel that Tolkien is moving towards being a 'fictional' character himself, the dreamy, slightly bumbling old professor with his pipe. We may never get to know the real man.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 11-16-2010 at 03:36 PM. |
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#17 | |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,779
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Quote:
Secondly, from whom did the authors obtain the letters in question, if not the family? Thirdly, why could the letters not be paraphrased? If I paraphrased the plot of LotR I would not be in breach of copyright, although if I copied it word for word I clearly would.
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling Last edited by Lalaith; 11-16-2010 at 04:52 PM. Reason: posted at the same time as the above. Clearly my second point was close to the mark. |
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#18 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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#19 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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Quote:
The physical letters are presumably in the possession of Hilary's family whereas the copyright resides with the estate. So Hilary's family have the right to show them to whom they like the reproduction of the contents is verboten without the permission of the estate. "Eyes only" in effect. As for paraphrasingtaking Dave's example, if I write "He wrote to Hilary that he had gone into Birmingham today & had tea. It had rained briefly , but then the sun had emerged giving the place an Elvish quality ". I don't think substituting some vocabulary, using reported speech and so on is enough for me to say that is no longer essentially Dave's writing. You could say that a film or radio script is essentially a paraphrase and both require the authority of the copyright holder. All in all it seems rather sad that it has got to this stage. I don't blame the Estate for protecting its rights but it shows how tight the laager has been drawn if even Angie Gardner with the cooperation of Hilary's family has fallen foul. But the price of Tolkien being taken more seriously as an author is legitimate interest in his life. There is a danger of babies being thrown out with bathwater....
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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