Aragorn and Arwen Are NOT RELATED

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So, is the topic starter coming back?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

So, is the topic starter coming back?

Nah, I suspect we all scared the poor feller away.

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nah, I suspect we all scared the poor feller away.

That seems quite possible, seeing as the issue has been settled so heavily against him (or her, I shan't be sexist).

[Alcuin]

Aragorn II Elessar is the first cousin second-two times removed of Arwen Undómiel. The “second-two times removed” means 62 generations have passed since Vardamir Nólimon son of Elros, Arwen’s first cousin and Aragorn’s ancestor.

Canon law is used in genealogy to count the maximum number of steps from the nearest common ancestor. In this case, Arwen is 2 direct steps away from the nearest common ancestor, Eärendil and Elwing. But Aragorn is 64 steps away: so the Canon relationship is 64.

The genealogical degree in civil law represents the total number of steps through the blood line that separate two individuals. In this case, there are 2 steps from Arwen to her grandparents, but there are 64 steps from Aragorn to Eärendil and Elwing, so the relationship is 64 + 2 = LXVI. (Civil relationship is reported with Roman numerals. You would think Canon relationship would use Roman numerals...)

Elendil, first High King of the Dúnedain (Númenóreans) in Middle-earth, was the son of Amandil, 18th and last Lord of Andúnië of Númenor. The first Lord of Andúnië was Valandil son of Silmariën, daughter and eldest child of Tar-Elendil, fourth king of Númenor, who was ninety-two when his great-grandfather Elros Tar-Minyatur died. (I.e.: he knew Elros pretty well.) Silmariën was passed over as sovereign because it had not been the habit of the Third House of the Edain to select women as rulers, and although Elros was related to all three Houses of the Edain, he was the titular head of the Third House because Eärendil was the son of Tuor, and Tuor inherited that title upon the suicide of his first cousin, Turin son of Húrin.

Two generations after Silmariën was passed over as sovereign, almost certainly before she died (probably around 934 in the Second Age), her nephew, Tar-Aldarion, changed the law of succession and appointed as his heir his daughter and only child, Telperiën, making her the first Ruling Queen of Númenor.

So while the House of Elros was the Ruling House of Númenor, the House of Valandil of Andúnië was the senior house of Númenor, even before the House of Elros. That’s what made the Lords of Andúnië the leading noble house of Númenor. Late in the Second Age, that must have made it legally difficult for Ar-Gimilzôr and Ar-Pharazôn to justify their repression of the Faithful Númenóreans because the Lords of Andúnië were among their leaders. It also meant that in Middle-earth, Elendil could rightfully claim to be High King of all surviving Númenóreans, first because of the seniority of his house; second because the House of Elros led the Dúnedain to disaster, defeat, and destruction; and finally because there were likely only very junior branches (if any) of the House of Elros that survived in Middle-earth. (It’s possible that Berúthiel was a descendent of one of these cadet branches, and that Tarannon Falastur hoped his marriage to her would cement his claims on the Númenóreans in Umbar and further south along the coasts, regions that had previously been more heavily settled by the Númenóreans in the days of their power; that didn’t work out too well and was followed by a long war.)

As for how much Maia was in Arwen, here’s the correct calculation:

It is not possible to calculate this for Aragorn, because every time someone married even a distant relative, you have to add the fractions of whatever heritage you have. (As a simple example, if your father is half English and half German, and your mother is half English and half Italian, you are half English (one-quarter plus one-quarter is one-half).) There were 22 generations between Elros Tar-Minyatur (generation 1) and Elendil the Tall (generation 24), and it’s likely many if not most of Elendil’s ancestors were related to one another; and Aragorn II was the 41st generation descended from Elendil. (Remember canon 64 in the genealogy? 24 + 41 – 1 = 64. The “–1” is so we don’t count Elendil twice.) Almost all the Northern Dúnedain were related to one another; reasonably speaking, all the surviving Northern Dúnedain at the end of the Third Age were no doubt closely related, since they didn’t intermarry with any other group.

If you haven’t seen it elsewhere, you can find Aragorn’s genealogy in this essay I wrote several years ago.

By the way, whether or not they were technically first cousins, Canon 64 is a pretty distant relationship. In all likelihood, there are a great many people reading and posting on this forum who are Canon 64 relatives (or much closer!) and will never know it.

[elronds_daughter]

Alcuin:

1. Props for doing all that tedious research. (And your avatar. But that's off-topic and there's an entirely separate thread for that sort of a thing.)

2. I think the point has been well settled in opposition of poor Beleg, who seems to have been frightened away by our heavy-handedness.

All in favor of returning to happier times? (Mirth, here I come!)

[Dilettante]

I'm a third cousin of Isaac Newton about 13 times removed.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nah, I suspect we all scared the poor feller away.

Heh, poor thing. Although sometimes that's just how we learn. However, I hope they were not frightened away completely.

I always assumed that Arwen and Aragorn were related because 1. both are descended from Luthien and 2. Aragorn is a descendant of Elros Tar-Minyatur who is Arwen's uncle, and both come from Earendil.

Aragorn is also related to Celeborn since, because he is a descendant of Luthien, he is also a child of Elu Thingol who (unless I am mistaken) is an uncle of Celeborn.

SO Aragorn is also related to his in-laws. And probably Denethor and Boromir and Faramir too. But then, by the Third Age, practically everyone is related to everyone else anyway. You should check out the hobbit family trees, they are just about as inbred as any family of the Eldar/Edain. (First and second cousin once removed either way.)

[Elmo]

If we go back 6000 years I'd put money on everyone in the Downs being 'kin from afar'.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Dilettante

Aragorn is also related to Celeborn since, because he is a descendant of Luthien, he is also a child of Elu Thingol who (unless I am mistaken) is an uncle of Celeborn.

Aragorn is actually related to Celeborn in 2 ways (...I think):

1. Celeborn's father, Galadhon, is the son of Thingol's brother Elwe. That makes Celeborn Thingol's ...great nephew?...

2. Celeborn's brother Galathil is the father of Nimloth who is Elwing's mother. I'm not even gonna try to go through all the greats and grands and whatnot of naming the relationship. It is. That's all.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Aragorn is actually related to Celeborn in 2 ways (...I think):

1. Celeborn's father, Galadhon, is the son of Thingol's brother Elwe. That makes Celeborn Thingol's ...great nephew?...

2. Celeborn's brother Galathil is the father of Nimloth who is Elwing's mother. I'm not even gonna try to go through all the greats and grands and whatnot of naming the relationship. It is. That's all.

Elwe is Thingol's original name. My namesake Elmo, Elwe's brother, is Celeborn's grandad I think.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Elwe is Thingol's original name. My namesake Elmo, Elwe's brother, is Celeborn's grandad I think.

My bad. I meant to write Elmo.

[Elmo]

No probs, I just feel the great Elmo needs more recognition for the deeds he did before he joined the Muppet business.