Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But that was the point. The dream came the most times to Faramir and only once to Boromir, and it was Faramir who should have gone, but Boromir came instead of him, obviously out of brotherly love and also the deep sense of duty he had, probably understanding at that point that such a dream was really of great importance

Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Originally Posted by Appendix A

Earnur was a man like his father in valour but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms.

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Was it really out of love, though? Is there much mention in The Council of Elrond of Boromir's love for his brother? He possibly loves Gondor. But there are several references to his pride. I've always interpreted his insistence that he go as the arrogance, egotism, pride, conceit of a first-born. Note that he assumes incorrectly that only Gondor--"thus are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us"-- has kept the foes at bay, a statement that obviously ignores the role of Aragorn and the rangers. I've always thought of Boromir as very similar to Earnur:

Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:

'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men.'

Appendix A

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Proud as Boromir no doubt was, he apparently did have a great deal of love for Faramir:

True enough that's in the Appendix, where also is Tolkien's comparison of Boromir with Earnur, but I had restricted the context to The Council of Elrond, where there is the most extensive depiction of Boromir's character, in action as it were, in conversation with Elrond and Aragorn. His words don't inspire one with his love for his brother, but with his arrogant belief in his supremacy for the task. As you have quoted above (when I cross posted with you):

Originally Posted by CoE

Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself.

And Faramir's comment suggests a certain degree of willfulness:

Originally Posted by WotW

Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.

And as the passage in Appendix A says, in continuation from what you quote:

Originally Posted by Appendix A

It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.

That last line is a powerful condemnation of the scorn and military prowess which determine Boromir's mindset. Had his love for his brother granted him more respect for Faramir's style and manner, perhaps he wouldn't have insisted so strongly that he alone was worthy of the task. But he was found wanting, as someone motivated greatly by love in LotR would, I think, not be.

[skip spence]

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

I think it was both. It is equally lacking to say that it was only Boromir's pride that made him take the task, as it is to say that it was out of pure love: we know it was not. But he had love for his brother, that is a fact.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

Well, see above. By the Númenoreans, it was still important to heed prophecies and such stuff, certainly for the educated people like Denethor. I don't think Boromir would be like "hey dad, what the heck is this stupid intellectual talk?" but he would be like "uh... I don't know anything about such stuff, but... perhaps it really is important if you say so. In such case, I suggest I go!"

[Pitchwife]

I'm with Legate and Nerwen here as for the matter of the sender of the dream being some "higher power" rather than, say, Gandalf or Galadriel, and I'm also not sure we need to bother Eru himself to explain it - the Valar, I think, weren't quite so detached from the War of the Ring as it probably seemed to those in Middle-earth, they merely acted with more discretion than in former ages, confining themselves to giving a 'minimally invasive' nudge in the right direction to things here and there (for another example see e.g. this thread).

Why Boromir and not Faramir? I suppose the final decision would have been Denethor's; and I think skip has a good point here:

Originally Posted by skip

Yeah but my point is... all this chasing a dream, seeking the advice of Elrond Halfelven concerning a legendary heirloom, doesn't all that seem a bit like... wizard talk to you? Something Boromir's brother was scorned for heeding too much, you know, for listening too much to Gandalf and his likes...

Exactly; and therefore, if it was absolutely unavoidable that one of the Steward's sons had to go on that errand, Denethor would have trusted Boromir more to represent Gondor's best interests (as he saw them!) in dealing with those tricky wizards and halfelves than Faramir, who was too much of a 'wizard's pupil' already for his father's taste.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Exactly; and therefore, if it was absolutely unavoidable that one of the Steward's sons had to go on that errand, Denethor would have trusted Boromir more to represent Gondor's best interests (as he saw them!) in dealing with those tricky wizards and halfelves than Faramir, who was too much of a 'wizard's pupil' already for his father's taste.

Well, Denethor, in truth was highly reluctant to let Boromir go, and only gave in when Boromir would not be "stayed."

"Loth was my father to give me leave..."~The Council of Elrond

If you think about it, the eastern side of Osgiliath had just been taken by Sauron. Boromir was the "Captain-General" of Gondor, and with Sauron already making the first strike, I doubt Denethor would have been thrilled with the idea of sending the Commander of his army to seek answers to some trippy riddle. At least, at the time when he was approached by Boromir and Faramir, he doesn't appear to know anything about the riddle. (It took Faramir a while to figure out that Isildur's Bane wasn't referring to the orc-arrow that slew him). So, I've never had the same interpretation of the "scene" as Jackson did in the movies, where Denethor pulls Boro aside to make him as some kind of agent for Gondor. I think Boromir was just so annoying and wouldn't shut up, Denethor was more like...ARG ALRIGHT ALRIGHT GO! When Faramir doesn't bite his tongue and reminds Denethor it was he who gave Boromir leave:

"Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,"...~The Siege of Gondor

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

I've been trying to unravel Boromir's complicated character ever since I read the story. Granted, it turns out to more a gushy man-crush for Sean Bean's performance, which I think in many ways "softens" the book Boromir. The movies concentrated on the best part of the character, the troubled and conflicted man who "fell," but in the end redeemed himself. In the forefront of the books, you see his arrogance and at times very childish, immature, behavior. Tolkien in one letter calls him the "bossy brother" of Faramir, and that could be a hangover from the earlier drafts where Boromir becomes Aragorn's rival in Minas Tirith.

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness:

"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan

...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whome Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy knumbskull.

[Galadriel55]

Returning to the topic, though, who sent the dream and why Boro went instead of his brother.
When the dream was brought to the counsil of Gondor, Denethor agreed to send one of his sons - not servants - to find out what's going on. He didn't sneer at Faramir's elvishness, or whatever it's called, when Boro said that he dreamt it too. This shows that Denethor accepted the dream to be true. It is very hard to make Denethor head any advise but his own, so this ust be one of the rare cases when he listened to someone else.
Once Denny accepted the dream, Boro wanted to go himself, because for the reasons above he understood it to be a serious matter. It does seem more like Boro to remain and fight and send Faramir, but I think it was his pride and his mistakened judgement that Gondor is the best and he's the best in Gondor that pushed him to take the task that he didn't much care for.
Faramir usually gave in to Boro, and didn't try to compete against him. Even if he said soething against Boro's decision, it was in his nature to just accept Boro as the best.
The dream was sent by an anonymus person, and probably fate. But I think that in LotR fate hardy does anything by accident. I think that this time fate (in the face of Eru, who planned out all the events of the world up to the very end) chose Galadriel to act through. Galadriel has her "magical" mirror, through which she can see the future. She also has a gift of telepathy, which means that can speak using just her thought, not her actual voice. I think that Fate, or Eru made her want to find out a little bit about the future. Galadriel decided that she is the one who is destined to push one of Denethor's sons to come to Rivendell, so she sent the dream and spoke in it. She is wise enough not to blurt out everything, which would turn Denny against the mission of destroying the Ring, because he would want the Ring hinself. Instead, she sort of intrigued Boro and Farry, so that one of them would carry out the fate...
Maybe fate chose Boro because he would need to go through the stage of a desparate desire for the Ring anyways, and it does less damage to the mission, to Gondor, and to many other people when Boro goes through it near Rauros. Imagie what would have happened if Farry went instead:
1) There would be 2 Aragorns in the Fellowship. Faramir is very much like Aragorn, except that he is more earthly; he's closer to regular people. The Fellowship is formed in such a way that no 2 members are too much alike, even Merry and Pippin. Farry would disbalnce the structure.
2)Faramir would probably help Frodo AT LEAST up to the Ithilien. That would prevent Frodo from meeting Gollum at the right time, and he's the one who actually destroys the Ring, even if accidentally. Moreover, this means that Frodo would have met Boromir near Henneth Annun, and his view of Frodo's story would be much different from Farry's. If Farry would have been with Frodo when they would've met Boro, it would turn out worse, because of their relationship. Farry would tell Boro way more than Frodo would, and he would follow Boro's instructions, like he normally does.



Wow! What a speech! I always had trouble with getting to the point quickly! Sorry everyone who had to read through this babbling.

[Nerwen]

The dream was sent by an anonymus person, and probably fate. But I think that in LotR fate hardy does anything by accident. I think that this time fate (in the face of Eru, who planned out all the events of the world up to the very end) chose Galadriel to act through. Galadriel has her "magical" mirror, through which she can see the future. She also has a gift of telepathy, which means that can speak using just her thought, not her actual voice. I think that Fate, or Eru made her want to find out a little bit about the future. Galadriel decided that she is the one who is destined to push one of Denethor's sons to come to Rivendell, so she sent the dream and spoke in it. She is wise enough not to blurt out everything, which would turn Denny against the mission of destroying the Ring, because he would want the Ring hinself.

Sorry, but this is just another way of saying, "Galadriel sent it". Which I think is most unlikely, for reasons already stated.

Originally Posted by Legate

Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor.

And also, if the dream had been sent by one of the characters, I believe there'd be some hint of this somewhere, and there isn't.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness

"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came."~The Riders of Rohan

...and Pippin grazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whom Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly and kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy numbskull.

I feel like addressing this "Boromir as bossy" topic in light of these two quotes, simply because I feel like they are two very different sorts of witness, and need to be distinguished on that basis. In and of itself, I don't think that Éomer's testimony disproves "bossiness" on Boromir's part at all. Indeed, I think it would prove it more than it would disprove it. Éomer admits, himself, that Boromir came little to the Mark, so most of what he is saying is hearsay (though, I admit, Éomer would be in more of a position than most to have met Boromir if he were to come to Rohan)--and it is a reputation specifically based on his actions at war--on the eastern marches.

"Bossiness" in a peer-like situation (such as Rivendell and the Fellowship can be considered--even though they aren't really peers in a proper sense, the only chain of command is "Gandalf and Elrond have commissioned us") or in personal relationships would translate well to "capable commander"--after all, you want a leader of men to be able to lead them. When Éomer says that Boromir was expected to become a great captain of his people, we should note that he says captain, a martial term. He is not, as Denethor might be, expected to become a great "steward" or "leader" or "statesman." This narrower expectation of "captain" reflects the fact that Boromir's reputation for greatness is limited solely to the battlefield--in other words, to one place where bossiness can most easily masquerade as something noble.

All of that being said, however, Éomer's testimony does not prove that Boromir was, in fact, bossy--merely, that it does not necessarily contradict any account of Boromir as bossy. As the son of the Steward and Captain-General of Gondor, Boromir could easily be camouflaged, since he would lack any real social peers and would be expected to display "bossy" traits.

The testimony of Pippin is, in my opinion, of greater weight, since it is a first-hand account, rather than hearsay. Furthermore, it is the account of someone who has no prior history with the military needs and conditions that would see military prowess as supremely praiseworthy.

I think it is also hugely important to note that, although Pippin "liked him from the first," we don't find this out until Pippin is in Gondor. We never see the scene in Rivendell where Pippin gets to see Boromir's "lordly and kindly" manners in actions. Insofar as The Lord of the Rings is the account by Frodo, it will presumably share his biases. Whether Frodo disliked Boromir from the Council of Elrond on, and then simply avoided him such that he had nothing to put in his account thereafter save the few occasions where Boromir impacted on the action of the whole Fellowship, or whether Frodo's final encounter with Boromir coloured his whole retelling of all that came before... who knows? I incline to the former option, out of a preference for Frodo's general objectivity as a recounter of events, and because Boromir was probably a bit of a fish out of water, being accustomed to being at the top of the social food chain, and finding himself a lowly mortal among immortals and less lowly mortals, at the Council.

What's more, it's easier to see how Pippin, as the young cousin with three older sisters, always tagging along after Merry and Frodo, would respond well to "lordliness" on Boromir's part, and see well-intentioned (if over-bearing) kindliness behind it. Pippin also does not attend the Council, so he would not have the baggage of those tensions to bias him against the one person on the council who voices the outsider's obvious first opinion.

In any case, I think it is significant that we only get this opinion of Pippin's AFTER the Fellowship has broken, once the narrator has to follow the minds and thoughts of the other Hobbits--and non-Hobbits. It highlights the fact that, although the narrator is third-person and not obviously connected with Frodo, the narrator is chiefly following Frodo's story, and thus Frodo's perspective may dominate. It is only when Frodo's perspective cannot be followed, that we see that Frodo's perspective may not have been the only one regarding Boromir.

What's more, now that I think about it, I think we can also see a different perspective already in Chapter I of The Two Towers, when Boromir is laid to rest. I've heard people comment before, if I remember correctly, that as Boromir's heroic end seems tacked on, or out of character, or something. It is possible, I think, that this seeming "out of characterness" can relate to perspective. With Frodo gone and the other Hobbits captured, the perspective is now, if anyone's, Aragorn's (though it may be Legolas and Gimli who are most likely to relay it to Frodo later), and I think he would have been far easier on Boromir than Frodo. Aragorn, as another Man, better understands the temptations the Ring posed for Boromir (though he is better able to resist it than Boromir), and also understands--alone among the Fellowship--what Gondor means to Boromir, and why a military solution would seem particularly compelling.

[Boromir88]

Hehe, BB and Form, if you think you're lengthy, I must really be far removed from my "novels" in defense of Boromir's character. I hope you know you've awoken a long slumbering bear.

First then to Bethberry's excellent perspective on the two different writing styles and the difference in Boromir as we see him in the action, and the "reflections" of his character after death. It's even seen in obituaries, where we highlight sort of the "best" qualities of the person's life, and not any mistakes the person may have made in life. We have this concept, out of respect for the dead, we should not mock the dead. And so this I think does well to explain the highlights of Boromir's better qualities, in the various reflections of him after death.

Even in Frodo's talk with Faramir, Faramir can tell (and all the readers too) that Frodo was tempering his true feelings of Boromir. We know they did not part on friendly terms, but I think Frodo is making a conscious effort (either for his own safety or for Faramir's sake) not to completely trash Boromir in front of his own brother.

However, I think what's important to note here is that Faramir's love for Boromir is not a blind love. We see that Faramir has a very accurate and to the point assessment of his brother's character. He doesn't have this blind, oogling, admiration for his great big-brother, and it's not a "he's my brother, I'm obligated to love him" kind of love.

'I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it.'~The Window on the West

I mean you could hardly guess that type of assessment coming from Boromir's brother. It's more scathing about Boromir, than anything Frodo said to Faramir.

'Ah, than it is as I thought: your trouble was with Boromir alone. He wished this thing brought to Minas Tirith. Alas! It is a crooked fate that seals your lips who saw him last, and holds from me what which I long to know: what was his in his heart and thought in his latest hours. Whether he erred or no, of this I am sure: he died well, acheiving some good thing. His face was more beautiful even in life.'~ibid

Which I think puts a different read on the Appendix quote about the "great love" which existed between the two brothers. Sadly, we only see what Faramir thought of Boromir, and not vice versa. However, I don't think you choose the words "great love" without it being something true and sincere. Faramir's love for his brother is not blind, that in and of itself is I think revealing to Boromir's entire character, since Faramir knows his brother had flaws. But in the end, great love still existed between the two, so...why?

But leaving Boromir "after death" aside for now, let's look at him from the Council to his death.

Pride is, for me, this ying and yang deadly sin. You have ofermod, excessive pride, and arrogance which Boromir definitely displays a lot of...and I think we can agree that Boromir at the Council and his attempt to take the Ring, are Boromir at his worst. Also, it frighteningly represents the type of person Boromir is capable of becoming. Gandalf just let the entire Council informed of Saruman's treachery and Boromir still flat out says "aye, Saruman's a traitor, but isn't the dude kind of right?"

'It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory.'~The Breaking of the Fellowship

I bold ruthless, because I don't know about you, but I don't consider that such a "good" quality, or anything at all to brag about. Yet, in Boromir's madness, he seems to think so. These represent the worst of Boromir, because I think it shows given Boromir's character, who he is capable of becoming, which even I admit...isn't such a good looking man.

However, let's not look at who Boromir was capable of becoming, but instead look at who he did become.

I look at the Council Boromir, and see more childish ignorance than the evil deadly Pride. I say that, because just look at his attitudes to Lorien and Moria, and his whining when things don't go his way. I mean honestly, it's like a little kid stomping his feet, and then pouting about not having any friends and no one listening to him.

But seriously now, of course Boromir's going to come to the Council toting on about Gondor and being Gondor-centric. At this time, what, he's 41-42? By the story's standards, that's still pretty young, and all his life he was brought up in Gondor, which is now in war-time (apparently been to Rohan a few times too). Point being though, as the next-in-line Steward, during these troubling times, he has the tremendous expectations to make sure there even is a Gondor there for Aragorn. He's already had war thrust upon him, with Sauron's attack on Osgiliath, and with a father who makes clear he has no qualms with "spending the lives of his sons." (Siege of Gondor), I think it's easy to see the Gondor-centric attitude. Especially at a Council, which stock full of old, immortal, wise uppity know-it-alls. All talk and no action. (I'm being purposefully difficult here, to at least try and implant the Council from Boromir's perspective. As opposed to Frodo's, who of course decided to comment on Boromir's "mocking" laugh towards Bilbo, and from that point on had a grudge. )

However, let's see the growth that takes place in Boromir from the Council to his death. In his deathbed confessions to Aragorn he admits to Aragorn he attempted to take the Ring from Frodo. But it goes even beyond admittance of wrong-doing, it is an acceptance of his own fault in it, and he now paid the price for his own mistake...his life, which is the steepest price to pay.

'I tried to take the Ring from Frodo,' he said. 'I am sorry. I have paid.'~The Departure of Boromir

Now by growth, I wonder if you believe if Council-Boromir attempted to take the Ring soon after the Fellowship left, would he have been able to respond in the same way that he does at Parth Galen?

Taking onto Form's point then, how perhaps Boromir's redemption does not fit with the Council-Boromir, nor the arrogance he shows. Aside from narrational bias of Frodo, I think Boromir can also show the good quality of Pride. Now, I realize not all are going to agree with me on this point, but I think it's Boromir's own pride which allows him to realize he is "better" than his attempt to take the Ring. Boromir also represents the good aspect of Pride...pride and confidence in your own self-worth. It is Boromir's pride and honor, which allows him to have one of those "I'm better than this" moments.

I find it ironic that with Boromir there seems to be the love him-hate him polarization, where someone like Grima or Gollum strike up more sympathy. Not saying that anyone has this opinion, but I do see irony in the "pitying" of Grima, but how easily put off one can be by Boromir. That could be do to Boroimr's Pride (something Gollum and Grima have little of), however I think there are a few other explanations too.

Grima and Gollum both fall short of forgiveness. They can't go beyond "pity," thus like Gandalf to Grima, and Frodo to Gollum, we may feel sorry and sympathize with their stories (or we may not). Boromir steps beyond Pity, into forgiveness. So, we either agree with Aragorn and Gandalf that he was "saved" and we are "glad," or we are left wondering...wait a second this seems out of place with the Boromir we met at the Council and after.

Here's the difference though, Boromir's "good" Pride allows him to recognize his own fault in trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He only goes so far as to say a "madness" took him, he never says "It was the Ring that made me." He does quite the opposite by saying "I tried to..." and "I am sorry. I have paid."

Grima and Gollum on the other hand, pass off blame to the outside factors. Gollum kills Deagol because the Ring was "his birthday present" and he felt he deserved it. Grima poisons his king, tries to steal a woman, and actually eats a hobbit, but all says "Saruman made me do it." They have little Pride (good or bad) and in the end never take responsibility for their choices. So, they can never be forgiven, but we look at them through sympathetic-colored specs, because of their "sad" stories. While at times, probably playing down the simple facts that they killed, betrayed, murdered, and never reached forgiveness.

For Boromir, I see Form's point about the narrational bias of Frodo. It could very well be that in Frodo's hero-worship of Gandalf and Aragorn was "put off" by Boromir's arrogance at the Council and therefor the bad first impression (combined with the bad final impression, which was never reconciled), leaves the Fellowship Boromir as a jarring contrast to the "redeemed" Boromir.

However, if you remove Frodo, we see the better parts of Boromir. This is not to say Frodo is wrong (as is evidenced by Faramir's own honest assessment of his brother), but simply that Frodo doesn't know the full picture of Boromir. As is evidenced by Faramir's honest assessment, Pippin's reflection, and Boromir's "good" Pride. So in short, like Legate, I think I like the answer of "both" the best.