Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I think it's largely situational. Glorfindal managed to take a Balrog over a cliff, Echthelion managed to take one into a deep fountain. I'm not sure that Feanor "took on" Balrogs, it's more that they took HIM on - and killed him without suffering loss.

Largely, I think this all indicates how powerful the Elvish lords were. Remember Fingolfin was able to deal 7 long-lasting wounds to Morgoth himself. Gandalf, as a Maia, may not have been so significantly more powerful than the greatest Elvish lords - at least not in physical prowess (his "power" in the end was in encouraging other beings to join the fight and in showing love to them).

Good point! Though I still feel he ought to have more power (let's just ignore the fact that he's a wrinkled old man who can actually wield a sword lol).

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Good point! Though I still feel he ought to have more power (let's just ignore the fact that he's a wrinkled old man who can actually wield a sword lol).

You may have something there.
As I think back to his battle, maybe it can be explained this way.

In the first stage (on the bridge) Gandalf's first aim and priority was to get the company safely out of Moria. Getting caught up in a fight might give orcs & trolls more chance to come on the scene and bar the gate or otherwise attack the fellowship. Thus, he sacrificed his staff in order to break the bridge and, he hoped, take the Balrog out of the picture long enough for them to escape.

He obviously did not expect that parting whip-stroke that dragged him into the abyss. A simple mistake, but very costly.

So, in the second stage, he lacked his staff (which is elsewhere shown to be VERY IMPORTANT - for lighting fires, as a lantern, for driving off flying nazgul, for use in healing Theoden <even in the books it was part of the process>, for disarming Gimli, Legolas & Aragorn when they thought him Saruman, and perhaps more). So his offensive power was significantly (and unexpectedly) reduced and he had to improvise. The result was he still killed the Balrog, but only after a long and damaging battle from which he received mortal wounds.

Had the battle been a more formally arranged bout - you know, Bally in the blue corner, Gandy in the red; unlimited rounds, unlimited choice of tactics, No Seconds, one-on-one, to the death - then perhaps Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the Balrog.

Unfortunately, real-life battles (especially the ones that matter) are rarely so cut-and-dried. They come in the midst of other engagements and the parties have to make do with what they have on the spur of the moment. And that, I think, tends to make such contests more chancy and less of a slam-dunk - even if one party is natively stronger.

[Galadriel55]

During the Gandalf-Barlog fight on the bridge, it clearly says that Barlog tried to close its wings over Gandalf's head, but was not able to. This is written proof that barlogs have wings.
However, not in LOTR or in the Silmarillion, is it written that a barlog ever flew. On many occasions barlogs could have benefitted from flying, but it seems that they were not able to. This questions the existence of wings.
My explanation to this is the wings are more of a metaphore for willpower of darkness. The fight between Barly and Gandy was more of a competition of whose will is stronger. This means that since Barly was not able to close darkness over Gandy, Gandy had more power and a stronger will at the moment. That is why Barly was required to use physical force - simply the power of his will and thought was not enough.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

During the Gandalf-Barlog fight on the bridge, it clearly says that Barlog tried to close its wings over Gandalf's head, but was not able to. This is written proof that barlogs have wings.

Ah, if it were that clear-cut this debate would have been over long ago.

I assume you're referring to this quote:

[The Balrog] stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall....

The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm

That in itself might seem rather straightforward, but a couple of paragraphs before we have this line:

[Gandalf's] enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

The fact that it says there "like two vast wings" leaves open the interpretation that the shadows gave the Balrog the appearance of possessing wings.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My explanation to this is the wings are more of a metaphore for willpower of darkness. The fight between Barly and Gandy was more of a competition of whose will is stronger. This means that since Barly was not able to close darkness over Gandy, Gandy had more power and a stronger will at the moment. That is why Barly was required to use physical force - simply the power of his will and thought was not enough.

That's an interesting way to view it. To me, it would seem a bit odd for Tolkien to have chosen that means of metaphor, though. Interestingly, the two had already had a "match of wills" you could say, involving the door Gandalf had locked with his power. The Balrog actually succeeded in causing the door to open in spite of Gandalf's spell. Gandalf's word of Command did not necessarily defeat the Balrog's counter-spell; it merely caused the chamber's roof to collapse.

And by the way, welcome to the Downs!

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My explanation to this is the wings are more of a metaphore for willpower of darkness. The fight between Barly and Gandy was more of a competition of whose will is stronger. This means that since Barly was not able to close darkness over Gandy, Gandy had more power and a stronger will at the moment. That is why Barly was required to use physical force - simply the power of his will and thought was not enough.

Gandy? Balry? *laughs* That's new! And welcome to the Downs, twin sister!

[Galadriel55]

Thanks, Galadriel.

I'm just too lazy to write the entire names down, so I used Gandy for Gandalf and Barly for Balrog.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Thanks, Galadriel.

I'm just too lazy to write the entire names down, so I used Gandy for Gandalf and Barly for Balrog.

So you had to write the whole new post to explain yourself, testifying to the fact that laziness is not paying off in the long run...

[Leyrana Silumiel]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

So you had to write the whole new post to explain yourself, testifying to the fact that laziness is not paying off in the long run...

Indeed. It's an additional two whole letters to write the correct name lol. It reminds me of people who type "tha" or "da" because they're too lazy to type "the."

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Thanks, Galadriel.

I'm just too lazy to write the entire names down, so I used Gandy for Gandalf and Barly for Balrog.

I've heard worse though. Fingolfin was Fingy, Finarfin was Arfy, and Fëanor was Fee

i would agree with gladriel

[Galadriel55]

Anyways,

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, if it were that clear-cut this debate would have been over long ago.

I assume you're referring to this quote:

The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm

That in itself might seem rather straightforward, but a couple of paragraphs before we have this line:



The fact that it says there "like two vast wings" leaves open the interpretation that the shadows gave the Balrog the appearance of possessing wings.



That's an interesting way to view it. To me, it would seem a bit odd for Tolkien to have chosen that means of metaphor, though. Interestingly, the two had already had a "match of wills" you could say, involving the door Gandalf had locked with his power. The Balrog actually succeeded in causing the door to open in spite of Gandalf's spell. Gandalf's word of Command did not necessarily defeat the Balrog's counter-spell; it merely caused the chamber's roof to collapse.

I agree with you on the wings:Balrogs probably don't have them, since Gandalf threw on off a bridge, Glorfindel threw one off a cliff, etc. Also, what's the use of "You shal not pass!" if the Balrog can simply fly around you? I wish I haven't voted "yes" for this question...
About the battle of wills, that's exactly what I mean!