A "Complete Silmarillion" in Spanish - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

gondowe · 09-27-2010, 02:53 AM

Hello, Findegil

This discussion can serve you for preparation when you arrive at the Tale of Aredhel and Eöl and Maeglin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

For me stil the best solution Tolkien came up with the story of a Tatyarin Avari. Since there was intermarraging between the clans he still could be a kin fo Thingol (who by the way seems to be akin to nearly everyone). Eöl being of Tatyarin blood would also explain why the marriage between his son Maeglin and Idril was out of question, when in other places a relatiuonship between first-cousins is allowed if the unrelated parents are not akin at all.

I am sure that, if ever we came to the story of Maeglin, Eöl will give us a hard nut to crack.
Findegil

I only can say that its my opinion too, but (I think that) the return to the Teleri side was later and in this case must be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

That Eöl had a relation to Thingol simply by living in Nan Elmoth is a given, so that does not explain (for me at least) what Tolkien meant with 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point'.

That Thingol is of a born genaration and not one of the awoken 144 is asured by him having a 2 brethern. Therefore we would not need Eöl to make that clear.
Findegil

In this matter I had adopted a diplomatical attitude. I still think what wrote in earlier posts and will not say again, but in the text I don´t identify in any case imin, Tata and Enel with Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë, the only manifiest alussion is that of the lammas that Ingwë war the fisrt to awake, the reader will extract his proper conclusions.

Greetings.

gondowe · 09-27-2010, 03:09 AM

By the way, I have revised another point of divergence between yours and my text, mentioned in another post and want to share with you. That of the mention of a Third elder son of Orodreth. I stiil think he can be suitable for the story (better with other name suggested by Tolkien), but I had named him Haldir as the later form Tolkien adopted, and I had not repared (inexplicably) in the elf of Lorien in TLotR, so I changed it by Halmir, the earlier name.
So the only repeated elven name would be the "imposible to change" Rumil.

Greetings

Findegil · 09-29-2010, 11:09 AM

What about Galdor and Legolas? Or are they out of your version of the Fall of Gondolin? Or are you onmy side, when I argue that both of them could be the same person in Gondolin and Imladris?

What bothers me about Halmir/Haldir son of Orodreth is that in part at least the leader of Brethil with a very similar name took ofer the part in the story that this son of Orodreth has. => Slain by Orks when barring the way to Nargothrond at a similar time. Okay the death of a Man would not embitter Orodreth that much even so he might have been a close ally, which is unlikley considering the policy of secrecy. But still it seems to be to much repetition. And it is again a repetition when Finduilas the daughter is slain a similar cruel way by the orks later on in the story.

About Eöl: Yes the discussion will be helpful for sure. I agree that it is dificult to stick to idea of Eöl being of Tatyarin origin. But as said already he proberbly has a mixed origin with a strong Tatyarin-Avari strain. But here again it is the information combiner that speaks. And that side of myself the one that must restriced by others in our project to secure some succes at all.

Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe · 09-30-2010, 07:21 AM

In the case of Legolas/Galdor, at the beggining of this thread I said that had been replaced Legolas by Galdor in the Fall of Gondolin, because I think Legonas must not be the same as in TLotR but Galdor can be the same, as Glorfindel.

In the matter of the repetition, I agree with you that a man and an elf with the same name in the same period is a bit shocking, but we have not other name from Tolkien himself. In other way it could be rare that an elf take a name of a man (like Haldir of Lothlorien), I think in every case is inversely.

A similar dead of Finduilas and Halmir as brothers, I think can even reinforce the narrative.

Greetings

gondowe · 03-07-2011, 03:38 AM

Hello again fellows, a days ago I have updated in the post above the structure of chapters in the Vols 1 and 2 of my version. Apart of other minor changes, the major was the inclusion of the story of Eärendil in the last tale of the Atanatarion.

I decided to do it because follow your version I did take the decision of include verse material, that makes an elongation of the text.

To the fragment of the lay of Eärendel (that I located at Nan-tathren ) and the Horns of Ylmir, after; and at the mention of the Sleeper of the Tower of Pearl, I added The happy mariners.

And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery.

In my concept of a book for the QS, (a resume of the tales), and another for the Atanatarion, the story must end with the Raising of the Star, and the Great end of the First age, must belong only to the QS.
If you think seeing my concept, what do you think?

Greetings

Findegil · 03-08-2011, 10:28 AM

Nice to read from you again Gondowe!

'The happy Mariners' did not make it into our version, because we thought that the tale told in it must come from a later age. Look at this thread for the discussion we had about that poem. Especially my post 91, were I confinced myself that the happy mariniers are Teleri-Elves sailing from Eldamar to the east to fill their ship with 'oriental sparks' and encounter the lonely singer in the tower of pearl when they are on their way back to Eldamar.

Gondowe wrote:

Quote:

And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery.

These are interristing additions. I will have to look depper into what these poems say. But it is worth a look for sure.

Respectfuly
Findegil

gondowe · 03-12-2011, 05:14 AM

Hello Findegil, ok, first of all, in my opinion, its only a song , not necessarily "canonically real or perfect".
But apart for the "inexplicably" mention of Gondobar, I don't see anything that gives me the impression that they go to the east. They go to the land of the Two Trees, and the orient fire is of the sun from the east in the rear of the ship. (Of course is an oppinion, a mode of see, of understand the song).

Of course we can omit the verse of Gondobar, but for example, a very nice option for me, is that we can change Gondobar for Eressëa, that is the place in what I always think when read the allusion of Gondobar. But these changes are easier for me that the texts in Spanish have not rhyme. Could you combine the older and the last versions of the poem?

....Thus they escaped their enchantment.

I know a window in a Western tower
......
beyond the country of the shining Trees.

For at last Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows.....

Greetings

09-30-2010, 07:21 AM	#4
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 248	In the case of Legolas/Galdor, at the beggining of this thread I said that had been replaced Legolas by Galdor in the Fall of Gondolin, because I think Legonas must not be the same as in TLotR but Galdor can be the same, as Glorfindel. In the matter of the repetition, I agree with you that a man and an elf with the same name in the same period is a bit shocking, but we have not other name from Tolkien himself. In other way it could be rare that an elf take a name of a man (like Haldir of Lothlorien), I think in every case is inversely. A similar dead of Finduilas and Halmir as brothers, I think can even reinforce the narrative. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 09-30-2010 at 03:19 PM.

03-12-2011, 05:14 AM	#7
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 248	Hello Findegil, ok, first of all, in my opinion, its only a song , not necessarily "canonically real or perfect". But apart for the "inexplicably" mention of Gondobar, I don't see anything that gives me the impression that they go to the east. They go to the land of the Two Trees, and the orient fire is of the sun from the east in the rear of the ship. (Of course is an oppinion, a mode of see, of understand the song). Of course we can omit the verse of Gondobar, but for example, a very nice option for me, is that we can change Gondobar for Eressëa, that is the place in what I always think when read the allusion of Gondobar. But these changes are easier for me that the texts in Spanish have not rhyme. Could you combine the older and the last versions of the poem? ....Thus they escaped their enchantment. I know a window in a Western tower ...... beyond the country of the shining Trees. For at last Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows..... Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 03-13-2011 at 07:45 AM.

09-27-2010, 03:09 AM	#2
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 248	By the way, I have revised another point of divergence between yours and my text, mentioned in another post and want to share with you. That of the mention of a Third elder son of Orodreth. I stiil think he can be suitable for the story (better with other name suggested by Tolkien), but I had named him Haldir as the later form Tolkien adopted, and I had not repared (inexplicably) in the elf of Lorien in TLotR, so I changed it by Halmir, the earlier name. So the only repeated elven name would be the "imposible to change" Rumil. Greetings

09-29-2010, 11:09 AM	#3
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	What about Galdor and Legolas? Or are they out of your version of the Fall of Gondolin? Or are you onmy side, when I argue that both of them could be the same person in Gondolin and Imladris? What bothers me about Halmir/Haldir son of Orodreth is that in part at least the leader of Brethil with a very similar name took ofer the part in the story that this son of Orodreth has. => Slain by Orks when barring the way to Nargothrond at a similar time. Okay the death of a Man would not embitter Orodreth that much even so he might have been a close ally, which is unlikley considering the policy of secrecy. But still it seems to be to much repetition. And it is again a repetition when Finduilas the daughter is slain a similar cruel way by the orks later on in the story. About Eöl: Yes the discussion will be helpful for sure. I agree that it is dificult to stick to idea of Eöl being of Tatyarin origin. But as said already he proberbly has a mixed origin with a strong Tatyarin-Avari strain. But here again it is the information combiner that speaks. And that side of myself the one that must restriced by others in our project to secure some succes at all. Respectfuly Findegil

03-07-2011, 03:38 AM	#5
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 248	Hello again fellows, a days ago I have updated in the post above the structure of chapters in the Vols 1 and 2 of my version. Apart of other minor changes, the major was the inclusion of the story of Eärendil in the last tale of the Atanatarion. I decided to do it because follow your version I did take the decision of include verse material, that makes an elongation of the text. To the fragment of the lay of Eärendel (that I located at Nan-tathren ) and the Horns of Ylmir, after; and at the mention of the Sleeper of the Tower of Pearl, I added The happy mariners. And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery. In my concept of a book for the QS, (a resume of the tales), and another for the Atanatarion, the story must end with the Raising of the Star, and the Great end of the First age, must belong only to the QS. If you think seeing my concept, what do you think? Greetings