WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Nogrod]

Alright.

Looking at Boro's posting the only believable seer hint - let's say unambiguos - is the one concerning Eonwë being -4 damage to us innocents. THat's actually quite boldly said if the scale has been made with innocent dying being between +1-10.

Now there are two clear "buts" involved.
1) Boro might be the false seer and thus his dream is incorrect. (although a cursed might appear as a wolf or a wolf as a cursed - among other roles available, just to remind you there are those possibilities as well)
2) Why would have Boro picked Eonwë as his first dream? There could have been more like "usual suspects"? (but then again, he has been an amazing seer thus far and sometimes seers go their ways)

But on top of that there are a few things.

Eonwë's toying with the "Wolf! There you had it!" and the stuff about Dionysos from Day1. He defended the way some others had already suggested by saying it was too obvious. Once again: a thing may look obvious when pointed out but when going with the flow it's not obvious unless you're looking for it. That's the way the hints get through, being obvious enough to one who looks for it but not obvious enough to one whop doesn't look for it - unless some maddening person brings them forwards for all to see...

And the fact, that it's probably not only the wolves who try to assure us it was too obvious but maybe also some innocents think like that, actually speaks in favour of my theory. If an innocent thinks it's too obvious then it wouldn't have been one.

And actually there was also this in the last minutes:

Originally Posted by Eonwë

But isn't the Cursed meant to play on the side of the village until they become a wolf?

I do read that as the classical "hey, I'm ignorant of that possibility" -defence which is always quite suspicious. I think that from the discussion we'd had we had quite clearly come to the conclusion that there is a flaw in the rules where the cursed is given the knowledge of him being the cursed thus making it possible for the cursed to play from the beginning as the wannabe-wolf.

But could he be a wolf? Well... Boro said he would be -4 damage to us if killed, so what would he give for a wolf and what for a cursed?

My main reason for my heightened suspicions on him toDay is this:

So, are you saying that as a wolf you'd rather kill the seer than leave one of your own to get killed so early on?

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?

I read it, and read it again, and re-read it... and I was almost giving up, going back to Nerwen, or anyone... The first part of it just looks soo uninformed and boldly ignorant... so an innocent accused by the false seer or just a cursed we could and maybe even should wait for to lynch untill there is a sign of someone turning into a wolf (like Glirdy promised to let us know from the narration). But then the latter part really struck on me.

Let me quote it once again:

Originally Posted by Eonwë

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?

Wouldn't that be more than a little risky? For an innocent Eonwë? Who was voted for no reason by the seer?

What risk would the wolves have had if their kill pointed at an innocent Eonwë?

And it's clear to everyone, if the possible seer was right and named X as a wolf, then it is the most risky for the wolves to let the possible seer to live - even if it costs one of them the next Day. And someone voting firmly "with no reason at all" is the benchmark of a seer...

And with four wolves, possibly more in the future, they could afford it nicely...


So how does this go together with my initial "cursed"-suspicion?

There's the enigmatic number -4. Was Boro trying to hint he was not that big a baddie or just trying to protect himself not going outright naming him -10 or somethig? I don't know.

Those of you who though Eonwë was not making cursed hints - as those would have been too bold - should think of the following though. How about a wolf-Eonwë? Maybe they discussed it and thought we would not lynch the possible cursed so one of them trying to pose as one could slip under the radar that way? Actually that would be quite a nice idea: provoking exactly the reaction some of you had - and what's most desirable, the idea of "let's not lynch him". What a perfect hiding-place for a wolf...

So looking at all that I must say:

++ Eonwë


EDIT: add a reading instruction - this is a "dramatically build-post" aka. the motive is opened bit by bit like my thought processes went, from cursed to wolf...

[Macalaure]

We should force Nog to go to bed. (Yes, he just voted, but we all know that that doesn't mean anything.) He's doesn't seem to be himself, but he doesn't seem like Wolf-Nog either - more like jetlag-Nog.
The whole hell/Hades debate with all the trying-to-not-imply-swearing is hilarious!

Greenie - toMorrow we're giving your warm, soft side a turn, ok?

I don't really understand what Shasta's reasons for voting Nogrod are. "His case is a big steaming bucket of double-, triple-, and quadruple-bluffing" sounds weird.

Eonwe, may I paraphrase your case against me as "Mac looks really, really good actually but there are a few far-fetched things that might mean he could be a wolf"? Also, you end your case against me with "He needs to be watched" and then put me in the highest "Evil" category. Consistency that is not.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

There was this incredible "taming of Mac" that took place. I had totally forgotten it. What happened? I mean the to and fro between Mac and tp ending in the sugariest ending I've seen in a while...

"The Taming of the Mac"? Somebody else already did that job.
Anyway, I think you're interpreting much more drama into it than there was. Phantom tested me a little, I joked about it, then a few people ran away with it, I clarified it (a little annoyed), phantom bought my explanation, peace, love, happiness.
(Except for poor Shasta, who based his accusations on it.)

Originally Posted by Shasta

Now there are two clear "buts" involved.

Third but: The only other time Boro mentions Eonwe he does so quite half-heartedly. Doesn't fit if he was his dream and found evil. He would have encouraged people's suspicions, at least subtly.
You're really too fixated on Eonwe's guilt.

[wilwarin538]

So, I have to vote and leave, cause there's some family stuff going on and I just can't stay on anymore.

++Eonwe

Sorry, I just, can't stay on tonight, I have to deal with all this.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Eonwe, may I paraphrase your case against me as "Mac looks really, really good actually but there are a few far-fetched things that might mean he could be a wolf"? Also, you end your case against me with "He needs to be watched" and then put me in the highest "Evil" category. Consistency that is not.

That's what posting at night will do to you... yeah, you should've been put higher up one or two places according to my post. I just changed my mind about you once I'd finished writing about everyone and forgot to change that part accordingly.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. A very busy RL day, and an insane amount of posting here. I can't recall ever seeing anything like this number of posts by Day 2! It's quite a lot to read through, but I think I've pretty well caught up.

Seems as if Nog, tp, Rikae, Nerwen, and to a lesser extent, Mac have been most in the spotlight toDay.

Of those, let's see...

Rikae I think I'm surprisingly all right with, for the time being.

Mac: Ehhh.....I still don't trust him enough to put him in the clear, but I won't be voting for him toDay.

tp: It's been a long time since I've played with him, and the only trustworthy phantom is a deceased phantom , but he doesn't seem evil right now.

Nerwen: Every time I trust her it seems to bite me, and every time I suspect her she seems to be innocent. I can't really find fault with her though. I don't remember who said it, but I agree that it's hard to see her being so blatant with a Hades hint, even if she did think she might have the cover of eveyone else speaking similarly. I want to believe her that it was a throwaway remark.

And Nog? I don't remember innocent Nog being so single-minded as he's been toDay. Usually he makes such a fuss of suspecting submarines, and not wanting to focus too narrowly on any particular person, but that hasn't been the case toDay. He seems to have just kept hammering away at the same points.

Which brings me to:

Originally Posted by autume98

I haven't gone through all the thread yet, but I do want to post my reasoning for the reason I voted BG yesterday since I've noticed a few concerns.

The reason I didn't vote for Mac yesterday is simply because I wanted to keep Eonwe around for a little bit longer. At the time Eonwe was also being looked at being lynched. At the time specualation was that he may be Dionysis, and I wasn't ready to lynch him yesterDay. I felt like we should keep him around and in order to do that I had to vote for BG. If I would've had enough people on my side I would've voted for Mac.

Your indications didn't seem to be that you were still ready to vote Mac. You pretty much just started agreeing with him, as if you hadn't said he was your top suspect shortly before. You even used his criticism of mine and Wilwa's votes for BG as reasons to suspect us.
Also, at the time you voted, BG had 5 votes, and Eönwë had 4. But you had to "save" him?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Looking at Boro's posting the only believable seer hint - let's say unambiguos - is the one concerning Eonwë being -4 damage to us innocents. THat's actually quite boldly said if the scale has been made with innocent dying being between +1-10.

That bothers me too. I don't understand why Boro said that, if he didn't know something. It's the most concrete thing I saw that could have pointed to one of his dreams. But why wasn't he more overt about suspecting Eönwë, if he was ready to give him a "Neg 4"?

Hmm. Nog, who I rather suspect through his own words and his possible link to my top suspect, tum, has voted Eönwë. Not really a big surprise, but it puts me in a bit of a bind.
I want to lynch tum. But she did say that she wanted to protect Eönwë yesterDay, so his lynch could tell me something about her. Then again, so could Nog's.

*sigh*

x/d with Mac and Wilwa

[Nogrod]

On my way to sleep...

I need to revisit Nerwen, just for a short while. Promise.

I admit I was suspecting her for partly wrong reasons (for picking exactly Hades from all the other possibilities and thus being too fitting). The fact that it was just a play with "What the he**!" curse took that point off. But actually, like I said before, if she was Hades, it would make even more sense to use that cursing as the suspicions could be answered just the way she did - and to which both Rikae and tp pointed. So other than be less believable it turns out to be more believable. Like if you thought it would have been too dangerous or too obvious to just rant like that, well no, it would be perfectly safe, or good enough to use a common curse as a hint - unless there were such one-track-minders like me who'd not give up.

Anyway. If I have made myself unclear about it before. That's more or less what I have against her thus far. I did perceive her defence a bit calculated and wolvish, but if fex. Mac turns out to be a wolf I think the situation is different. I do not "know" Nerwen is a wolf - or claim to know that.

There's quite a little we can make out of yesterDay's BG-train as no-one knew she was the lover, not even the wolves. Eonwë-train (or those who didn't join at certain phases and for which reasons) then again, if he turns out a wolf - or even the cursed - might really give some info.

Tum should start making more sense. And the likes of Foley, Nienna, Kath and also Lottie should start saying more.

Hey Lottie, it's not enough or substantial you say you "don't like someone". Tell us why and how that translates into possible wolvery or something... I mean someone you just dislike might be a goodie and someone you love might be a baddie. (coughWilwaSallycough)

Keeper of Mira I find really hard to read. I mean I kind of understand her bafflement about her needing to get a hint of protecting Boro, but that whole affair looks just so weird.

On many others I've had laughably too little time to concentrate - and I should have looked more closely to many. What makes this bad is that like I said in the admin thread - I was taken in to this game with a questionmark which was due to the fact that my participation will be small on the coming few Days - and I actually hadn't have time to specify my time-limits before I was in with a role. I do hope to get online, but I can't grant it before Wednesday (surely one or two Days but not everyDay). So bear with that or don't. I'll post something early next Day if alive and then, well at some point I hope. I'm aiming at not being modfired (two Days of not-voting in a row)... And from Wednesday on more steadily, if allowed. Just to let you know.

I did try to cause some discussion and hoped to do the best I could.

Heh, just saw this:

Originally Posted by Mac

We should force Nog to go to bed. (Yes, he just voted, but we all know that that doesn't mean anything.)

You don't need to as I'm doing it myself - I need to be at the wheel once again in something like 30 hours so I'd wish to have two night's sleeps before that.

[the phantom]

All right, I'm back and will be off and on up until deadline.

The tally:

Greenie ==> Mac
Shasta ==> Nog
Kath ===> Nog (2)
Lalaith ==> Eonwe
Nog ====> Eonwe (2)
Wilwa ==> Eonwe (3)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Phantom, I said I didn't see what was touchy about your posts.

Sorry about that. I must be reading too quickly.

Originally Posted by MiraKeeper

The one solid(ish) thing that is sticking in my addled mind is that phantom is making a weird amount of sense. Usually he just confuses me and makes me want him dead.

Aw, thanks. (And has anyone decided on a nickname for you with this account? "Meeper" perhaps?)

Originally Posted by Mac

Anyway, I think you're interpreting much more drama into it than there was. Phantom tested me a little, I joked about it, then a few people ran away with it, I clarified it (a little annoyed), phantom bought my explanation, peace, love, happiness.

Heh heh... but perhaps you shouldn't have said "love", as people may think you're trying to send me a lover hint.

My goodness- there are so many people who are completely slipping past me at this stage! This village is just too big right now, and some people are too quiet, and some arguments/discussions have occupied all my time. I have hardly any opinion on Nienna, Kath, Lottie, Shasta, and Sally. I really should give them a look.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And Nog? I don't remember innocent Nog being so single-minded as he's been toDay. Usually he makes such a fuss of suspecting submarines, and not wanting to focus too narrowly on any particular person, but that hasn't been the case toDay. He seems to have just kept hammering away at the same points.

First: What do you mean by suspecting submarines? I haven't heard this term before.

Originally Posted by Inziladun on Tum

Your indications didn't seem to be that you were still ready to vote Mac. You pretty much just started agreeing with him, as if you hadn't said he was your top suspect shortly before. You even used his criticism of mine and Wilwa's votes for BG as reasons to suspect us.
Also, at the time you voted, BG had 5 votes, and Eönwë had 4. But you had to "save" him?

Well Mac wanted to actually go for a wolf. I was cool with that. We weren't getting anywhere by suspecting each other. So I left him alone. Besides I knew at this point there was no way I'd be able to lynch him.

Yes Eonwe only had 4 votes and BG had 5. And if I voted for Eonwe then they both would've had 5. So by voting for BG I was doing what I could to keep Eonwe yesterDay as I wanted BG gone more than I wanted Eonwe gone. Does that make sense?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by autume98

First: What do you mean by suspecting submarines? I haven't heard this term before.

A submarine is one who doesn't post much, or when they do, it's nothing of consequence. Basically they aren't around enough for one to get any impression of them.

Originally Posted by autume98

Well Mac wanted to actually go for a wolf. I was cool with that. We weren't getting anywhere by suspecting each other. So I left him alone. Besides I knew at this point there was no way I'd be able to lynch him.

But you didn't go after a wolf. You voted for someone you thought was innocent.

Originally Posted by autume98

Yes Eonwe only had 4 votes and BG had 5. And if I voted for Eonwe then they both would've had 5. So by voting for BG I was doing what I could to keep Eonwe yesterDay as I wanted BG gone more than I wanted Eonwe gone. Does that make sense?

No, it really doesn't make sense. Eönwë wasn't even tied for votes when you gave yours. I don't see how that makes your vote an effort to save him.

[Macalaure]

We have a game with three pairs of lovers, yet whenever I say the L--- word, I get somebody to shout "He's hinting!". That does not bother me at all. Nope. Not in the least. Totally cool with it. Perfectly fine. Love it.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

We have a game with three pairs of lovers, yet whenever I say the L--- word, I get somebody to shout "He's hinting!". That does not bother me at all. Nope. Not in the least. Totally cool with it. Perfectly fine. Love it.

Mac, I love you. (Whoops, lookie what I did. )

Gah. I'm so bloody tired again; I keep falling asleep trying to look at Nog. Does that mean something?

[the phantom]

I don't know where the argument started or why, but I can't pass up this statement, Inzil-

Eönwë wasn't even tied for votes when you gave yours. I don't see how that makes your vote an effort to save him.

Um, are you kidding me? It was towards the end of voting and Steve was only behind by one single vote when Tum voted to increase the lead to two. How is that not a vote to save Steve?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I don't know where the argument started or why, but I can't pass up this statement, Inzil-

Um, are you kidding me? It was towards the end of voting and Steve was only behind by one single vote when Tum voted to increase the lead to two. How is that not a vote to save Steve?

All right. Maybe I'm splitting hairs there. But it still doesnt seem all that imperative to cast a vote on someone she thought was innocent in order to save someone else who wasn't ahead in the vote count. And has she explained why she wanted to save him so badly?

x/d with tum and Rikae

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

All right. Maybe I'm splitting hairs there. But it still doesnt seem all that imperative to cast a vote on someone she thought was innocent in order to save someone else who wasn't ahead in the vote count. And has she explained why she wanted to save him so badly?

It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to save him so badly. I never said I wanted to save him really bad. I just wanted him here toDay more than my other choice.

So now I have to ask...why did you vote for BG? What made you suspect her so early on?

[Nienna]

Hey all I'm sorry my participation has been slack today, I will have more time if I'm still alive toMorrow.

Thoughts: Someone (sorry I don't remember who) mentioned that my one earlier post didn't list everyone. I made that post as I was just going through the thread and it wasn't meant to be a list, just a collection of thoughts that popped up for me as I was reading.

Zil, I voted Steve even though he could be innocent because everyone could be innocent. He was just the person I thought would be best lynched. I think that again today though Nog's defending of his vote for Steve seemed a little like a wolf needing to defend his vote with lots of stuff.

Though Nog suddenly is seeming rather furry, I believe Steve's lynch will shed more light on the game.

++ Steve

And goodnight.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

A submarine is one who doesn't post much, or when they do, it's nothing of consequence. Basically they aren't around enough for one to get any impression of them.

Thanks for the explanation!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But you didn't go after a wolf. You voted for someone you thought was innocent.

No, it really doesn't make sense. Eönwë wasn't even tied for votes when you gave yours. I don't see how that makes your vote an effort to save him.

I wasn't just thinking about my vote. I was thinking about the way others were probably going to vote too. By the time I put my vote in it was down to BG and Eonwe. BG had 5 and Eonwe had 4. I think there were four votes left. Don't quote me on that though. So I'm thinking that there are still some votes that are going to vote for BG and some for Eonwe. So my vote is now who do I want around more: BG or Eonwe. I decided that I wanted Eonwe to stick around for one more day instead of BG. I wasn't voting for 1 in 20. I was voting for one or the other.

As for voting for someone who was innocent, I thought both of them were innocent. Yet one of them was going to be lynched. There wasn't anything I could do to stop one of them from being lynched. So I chose between the one that I wanted to have stick around.

And I still didn't like people going after BG. I'll stand by that. However by the time I voted there was nothing I could do to stop it. Now if Eonwe turns out to be a wolf then I know that will look REALLY bad. So I'm really hoping that Eonwe is someone good. I can see why you think my vote looks bad. I'm not sure what else I can tell you since everything I've said is the truth. I'll do my best to try and clarify things, however sometimes it seems my logic doesn't match up with everyone else's logic.

Edit: x-ed with Mac, Sally, and tp

[Loslote]

Okay:

Originally Posted by autume98

I wasn't just thinking about my vote. I was thinking about the way others were probably going to vote too. By the time I put my vote in it was down to BG and Eonwe. BG had 5 and Eonwe had 4. I think there were four votes left. Don't quote me on that though. So I'm thinking that there are still some votes that are going to vote for BG and some for Eonwe. So my vote is now who do I want around more: BG or Eonwe. I decided that I wanted Eonwe to stick around for one more day instead of BG. I wasn't voting for 1 in 20. I was voting for one or the other.

No, there was a chance to get someone else lynched. You didn't even try to even ask around to see if anyone else wanted to lynch, say, Mac. You remember, you top suspect? Who at least one other person who'd yet to vote wanted lynched? It seems like a pretty poor effort to not even attempt to get him lyched. But it's pretty good wolf-on-wolf.

As for voting for someone who was innocent, I thought both of them were innocent. Yet one of them was going to be lynched. There wasn't anything I could do to stop one of them from being lynched. So I chose between the one that I wanted to have stick around.

And I still didn't like people going after BG. I'll stand by that. However by the time I voted there was nothing I could do to stop it. Now if Eonwe turns out to be a wolf then I know that will look REALLY bad. So I'm really hoping that Eonwe is someone good. I can see why you think my vote looks bad. I'm not sure what else I can tell you since everything I've said is the truth. I'll do my best to try and clarify things, however sometimes it seems my logic doesn't match up with everyone else's logic.

How would you know? You didn't try.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Loslote replies to my quotes above

Okay:

No, there was a chance to get someone else lynched. You didn't even try to even ask around to see if anyone else wanted to lynch, say, Mac. You remember, you top suspect? Who at least one other person who'd yet to vote wanted lynched? It seems like a pretty poor effort to not even attempt to get him lyched. But it's pretty good wolf-on-wolf.

How would you know? You didn't try.

By that time I was getting tired and wanted to go to bed and get some sleep. Yes I'm up later than I was yesterDay. However some nights I'm more tired than others. So I didn't stick around to see if someone else could get lynched.

edit: x-ed with tp, Mac, and tp

[Rikae]

Okay, I've been focused on the Nog/Mac/Phantom/Nerwen/Steve business, and this Inzil/Tum stuff is just beginning to make an impression. What is this? Tum voted for BeiGe after finding her innocent? I'll have to have a look at Tum's posts, especially considering that the above mentioned stuff isn't producing any leads, but just leading me more and more toward thinking all the big names are innocent or, at worst, lovers. Hmm. Back in a moment.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Okay, I've been focused on the Nog/Mac/Phantom/Nerwen/Steve business, and this Inzil/Tum stuff is just beginning to make an impression. What is this? Tum voted for BeiGe after finding her innocent?

What about Phantom?

Originally Posted by the phantom

Okay, so I read Steve's posts, and I think he's innocent. His wine comment is the only thing that I could see that would make him look bad to anyone. Some of the other things he said were quite good. He was the one who floated the idea of the two Rangers working together to protect the Seer in fact. I see no reason for him to have suggested that as a baddie. Anyway, yeah, I can't see supporting his lynch.

But then he votes for me anyway.

[the phantom]

Yeah, whatever, I'll try Nienna if you want, Mac, just so long as you understand that, should Eonwe end up being saved today, we're going to go through all of this again tomorrow.

And yes, Steve, I voted for you despite defending you (I even defended you to Nog after voting you). I explained that yesterday at the time that I did it.