WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I have admitted it could be some other way (like saying that Hades might be a reasonable choice for a random God-pick).

But not my actual explanation– I think I said this pretty clearly yesterDay– which is that it wasn't a "God-pick" at all, but rather that I was using "Hades" = abode of the dead = "hell" (roughly). I was making a joke of using a "Greek" version of the common English profanity, "what the h---". It didn't occur to me that it could be taken any other way, though I admit that was rather stupid of me. Now do you understand?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose. Yeah, it might be he was just testing Mac (he loves testing people but hates it when other people test him ), or whatever scenarios he had in mind. Who knows? But I thought the word "framing" was in place there.

Some of it was a stretch, like the "being alone in this" stuff. Yet, Mac did seem particularly occupied with the Hades/Persephone topic, and I can see how some of his early comments might look like hints. I think it was worth asking him to explain, anyway. So I do think "framing" is an extreme way to describe it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now, if you don't mind, we change subject. Could we?

Sure.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Lalaith]

Just realised... as everyone is so obsessed with hints and word-clues, I think I need to clarify that my use of the word 'curse' just there meant I was cross and any resemblance to any ww role living or dead is entirely co-incidental. Nightynight.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose.

Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.

Originally Posted by Nog

I would still come to his Eonwë -thing as the most likely seer hint (surprise-surprise, but then again I wouldn't have gone after someone that steadily for nothing).

So here's once again what Boro said about anyone who's not a wolf hurting us if dying:

Voting Eonwë he then said this:

So if an innocent dying hurts us on a positive scale (the more the worst), then someone dying and going to the negative side of the scale would not be innocent. That is downright plausible.

To me the only questions that remain, are whether Boro was the real or the false seer and did he see him as a cursed or as a wolf?

Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.

I know you like to play mind-games and test people; and that requires "making things up". Many of us do that to check how people react to them etc. And really, being the only one having an opinion and complaining about it is nothing odd (I should know!), the scripture-reference should be hewn overboard in this case just because the reference will not be familiar to most native-speakers either (unless active learned christians, I suppose?), and we all, well quite a host of us, talked about needing to find the hints (what else have we actually discussed if I may ask?). So saying that becasue of those Mac is especially suspicious? Stretched, yes. I would say more than that but sadly miss the vocabulary to more refinedly say a fabrication... framed was the one that came to mind. And you do frame when you test, don't you?

Anyway, I like it far better now.

Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).

I do actually lean on voting for Eonwë (his actions toDay haven't exactly made him look better) and do not have too much time, so could you tell me what makes you think Boro was the false seer rather than the true one? I mean he didn't know it himself which one he was and thus you can't read it from his behaviour, so what's your view?

[wilwarin538]

So....I took a nap. That's why it took me so long to come back. *is exhausted* But here's the list I said I would make:


I'm ok with the following people

Lalaith
Nerwen
Rikae
Mac
Sallycakes
Greenie

Meh, neutral

Kath: I liked her post yesterday cause I appreciated her effort, but I would like more from her before I form a realy oppinion
Nienna: just not enough to go on from what I can see, still don't get why people wanted to lynch her, unless I missed something
Inzil: just hasn't stood out for me
Mira: still not too much from her
Phantom
Folwren

I'm uneasy about

Tum: because of some of the things she's been saying it just seems very odd, but I'm not going to push it as much as some people cause this just seems like it could turn into a repeat of yesterDay and the Day before
Lottie: only because of how much effort she's putting into going after Tum, besides that I don't feel strongly about her either way
Shasta: purely a gut thing I'll admit, I'll need to look at his posts more
Nog


So I'm not overly suspicious about anyone but I'd be comfortable voting for anyone in my last category, and could possibly be persuaded to vote for some of the ones in the middle one. Hopefully tonight when I need to decide I'll have narrowed it down more.

x'ed with a couple

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Sorry for not posting earlier. I'm dealing with a lot of crap at the moment.

In any case, I agree with those who say Lottie's mega-post is one that was virtually unreadable. Summaries, please.

Re - Nog and the question he asked of me yesterday: when I said that your case on Nerwen was double-, triple-, and quadruple-bluffing, I meant that it relied on 'would a wolf have done this, or would a wolf not have done this knowing we'd think they did, or...?' That's basically all it is, and I don't see anything else supporting it.

Re - Sally's plan: the main point against it is the revenge-kills, as Rikae pointed out. For that reason alone I'd be against it.

[wilwarin538]

I feel like making a list:


Look good to me

Lalaith: I feel quite good about, makes good sense.
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.
Nerwen: though I get what Nog was trying to say, I'm going to give Nerwen the benefit of the doubt here, I really think it was just banter.
Rikae: just seems like regular Rikae to me

Under my reindeer/not enough posts

Tum
Nienna
Zil (but he's posted a lot, so I don't know why, just nothing has stood out I guess)
Lottie
Mira
Shasta

Iffy/Confused about, but not necessarily willing to vote for

Sally: I can't even explain why, it's purely a gut a thing, and the usual confusion that comes along with her.
Phantom: cause he's the Phantom, and ya never know with him. But he seems to be fairly logical, and I don't see what's so touchy about his posts. I really wouldn't want to get rid of a big poster though either. So I'll stick with being 'wary of' but not willing to get rid of yet.
Folwren: she seems to constantly be second guessing herself, or making it sound like we should overlook her posts or not take them seriously. Which I find fairly odd.
Greenie: plain and simple, I just have no idea.
Nog: mostly is quite reasonable, but he accuses tp of being touchy, and then seems quite touchy himself. And even though I understand his point about Nerwen, I just feel like he got overly sensitive about people not agreeing with him (even if there was some confusion about english curse words). But again, like the Phantom, I'd hate to get rid of a big poster so early.
Eonwe: the Dyonisis thing still is very odd, and is still taking up a lot of discussion. And his one defense that I pointed out in my first post of the Day was quite strange. I *think* I'd be willing to vote him, if not mostly just to clear up a few things.

So Eonwe is an option, but I would much rather have more solid suspicions then just a little reference, coupled with the curiosity of what he is. But I still have quite a few more hours to decide.

x'ed with bunches

[wilwarin538]

Just realised I think I forgot Mac. He would go in my OK with category, cause I don't think he was hinting at being Hades, just seems like a stretch (I get the reasoning behind thinking he was hinting, but I just don't think it's likely). And besides that he just seems reasonable.

Originally Posted by Tum

So apparently I'm a little confused. I know shocker! I thought for some reason the Aphrodite had to do with wine. I looked it up and it has to do with Love and Beauty. So please ignore the above post.

Actually, that quote still works. As the Goddess of Love and Beauty, and she said "where I get my good looks from".

x'ed with phantom

[Nogrod]

Talking about finding anomalies...

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I feel like making a list:
Look good to me
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.

Oh my! That (ADDED: Kath's post) was the most un-educated and well, muddled up post I've seen for a while. I mean she totally messed things up, like talking about Boro's Hades-hints (which?) being an issue or generally just saying that most that we have actually achieved is suspicious.

It's clear Kath has not have time to read or to think. She actually more or less admits it in her post. And that's fine. Everyone does not have time everyDay. And she's also a most lovable person. But still, and because of that, her post doesn't in any case earn that praise Wilwa makes of it. Which makes me wonder what the purpose of that praise was...

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Talking about finding anomalies...
Oh my! That was the most un-educated and well, muddled up post I've seen for a while. I mean she totally messed things up, like talking about Boro's Hades-hints (which?) being an issue or generally just saying that most that we have actually achieved is suspicious.

It's clear Kath has not have time to read or to think. She actually more or less admits it in her post. And that's fine. Everyone does not have time everyDay. And she's also a most lovable person. But still, and because of that, her post doesn't in any case earn that praise Wilwa makes of it. Which makes me wonder what the purpose of that praise was...

That was kind of the point that I was ok with it. She clearly didn't have a lot of time to read or post, and yet still managed to at least somewhat touch on the big subjects. I didn't say that it made a ton of sense, just that I appreciated her effort, which is much more than other less active people have done. It was far better than just saying "oh, I have no time to even try and post so I'll just vote random".

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Here's a wacky idea that's zany. Maybe Zeus didn't want us to have a ranger (read, seer, because I'm an idiot and got distracted as I was typing) so we'd do the work ourselves. In that case, who would do that? Phantom?

I seriously doubt that, because he's made it harder for himself to win as well The only real motive he could have had for that is revenge, twisted though it is.

Since examining the comments and interactions of the known (and all but known) wolves is our best option at the moment, I remembered this from I think, yesterDay.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I feel like making a list:


Look good to me

Lalaith: I feel quite good about, makes good sense.
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.
Nerwen: though I get what Nog was trying to say, I'm going to give Nerwen the benefit of the doubt here, I really think it was just banter.
Rikae: just seems like regular Rikae to me

Obviously there's at least one packmate in her "looks good" list, very possibly two, but probably not all three of them. That would be a bit risky, even though Wilwa hadn't been under any major suspicion up to that time. Rikae is a wolf, leaving Kath, Nerwen and Lalaith. What she says about Kath could be noteworthy. More on that in a moment.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Under my reindeer/not enough posts

Tum
Nienna
Zil (but he's posted a lot, so I don't know why, just nothing has stood out I guess)
Lottie
Mira
Shasta

If there's a wolf here, the likelihood is that it's Nienna. I'm not convinced of it, but she looks worse than the other two. I feel pretty good about Mira, and really don't know about Shasta. I keep forgetting about him.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Iffy/Confused about, but not necessarily willing to vote for

Sally: I can't even explain why, it's purely a gut a thing, and the usual confusion that comes along with her.
Phantom: cause he's the Phantom, and ya never know with him. But he seems to be fairly logical, and I don't see what's so touchy about his posts. I really wouldn't want to get rid of a big poster though either. So I'll stick with being 'wary of' but not willing to get rid of yet.
Folwren: she seems to constantly be second guessing herself, or making it sound like we should overlook her posts or not take them seriously. Which I find fairly odd.
Greenie: plain and simple, I just have no idea.
Nog: mostly is quite reasonable, but he accuses tp of being touchy, and then seems quite touchy himself. And even though I understand his point about Nerwen, I just feel like he got overly sensitive about people not agreeing with him (even if there was some confusion about english curse words). But again, like the Phantom, I'd hate to get rid of a big poster so early.

I cut off her remarks on Steve, but they obviously don't matter. Hard to tell anything from that, except that she casts a bit of suspicion on Folwren with a specific point, which may make Foley look less likely as a mate. Or not.

The post from Kath that induced Wilwa to put her at the top of the trust list was this one:

Originally Posted by Kath

Warning: stream of consciousness.

The major Nog/Greenie/phantom argument is revolving around the idea of hints, yes? Basically, that hints were seen in Boro's posts, and it turned out that rather than the Hades hint that everyone leaped on being an actual hint, it was those relating to being the Seer that was in fact real. I'm not quite sure where I'm going here. It just feels like a lot of people are saying 'well look Boro's hints turned out to be truthful ... therfore Nerwen's and Mac's potential hints must also be right'. But Nerwen mentioned Hades not anything else (that I noticed - though I didn't notice Boro's Seer hints so that's not saying much) - and Boro's Hades 'hint' turned out to be nothing. I'm confusing myself. It just feels slightly hypocritical I think. If you'd been right about Boro hinting to be Hades you can't be right about Boro hinting to be the Seer and vice versa - he wasn't both. Also, whatever hints Boro may or may not have left, and whether he was the true Seer or the false Seer - it is likely we'll need more than the evidence from one Day to be able to read a huge amount into them.

In short (ish) - those who are focused so heavily on these hints seem suspicious to me. I know, I know that right now these are interesting and discussion-producing ... but the focus is causing these major ructions that are a beautiful distraction whether for the current loudmouths or for those who are quietly letting them get on with it.

Couple of questions probably aimed at the Mod - do we get any information in the narrations as to what has happened with the Mythomaniac? I think I saw that asked earlier but didn't see an answer. Will we know if we've not got more wolves? Also, there were questions about the Cobbler - is there a Cobbler as a separate role or is the Cursed pretty much a Cobbler?

Then there was the Eonwe/Dionysus business. I don't really know Eonwe's playing style. There are players who might well announce their role (within the boundaries of the game) Day 1 and sit back to watch everyone argue it out. Fea comes to mind. Is Eonwe that bold a player?

I'm glad those who were a bit quieter yesterDay seem to be back toDay and getting involved. In this game I don't think so many quiet players are likely to be lynched - Blind Guardian was probably a bit of an exception and unlucky to be playing in a game with so many veterans who just wanted to get on with it. That said, and despite my appalling hypocrisy here given I'm going to manage one post toDay, I hope the attention keeps up. Like I said, with loudmouths arguing it's too easy for quieter players to slip under the radar ... not actually that we have that many.

Anyway. Bedtime for me, especially as I'm starting to ramble. So from what I've said above my main suspects have to be Nogrod, phantom and Greenie. Nog and phantom have both reacted over-zealously, bringing emotion and sarcasm into play much more than Greenie which sort of logically makes me suspect them more. Nog I have seen act this way before. phantom I don't recall having done it. phantom is generally calm (as I recall) when suspected as a wolf, but I wouldn't put it past him to put on a show to negate that. Nog's 'do you read what other's post thing' I found quite odd and actually quite rude, and despite having seen him overreact in this way before this does seem to have blown up over two different ways of looking at a point - a dichotomy he has accepted in the past.

So:

++NOGROD

Nog quickly questioned Wilwa's trust for Kath based on that post.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Talking about finding anomalies...
Oh my! That (ADDED: Kath's post) was the most un-educated and well, muddled up post I've seen for a while. I mean she totally messed things up, like talking about Boro's Hades-hints (which?) being an issue or generally just saying that most that we have actually achieved is suspicious.

It's clear Kath has not have time to read or to think. She actually more or less admits it in her post. And that's fine. Everyone does not have time everyDay. And she's also a most lovable person. But still, and because of that, her post doesn't in any case earn that praise Wilwa makes of it. Which makes me wonder what the purpose of that praise was...

This was Wilwa's response.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

That was kind of the point that I was ok with it. She clearly didn't have a lot of time to read or post, and yet still managed to at least somewhat touch on the big subjects. I didn't say that it made a ton of sense, just that I appreciated her effort, which is much more than other less active people have done. It was far better than just saying "oh, I have no time to even try and post so I'll just vote random".

I was focused on Tum yesterDay, I admit, so I just took note of this mentally and moved on. Now that Wilwa's known to be a wolf, this ought to be examined.
Was Kath's effort worthy of her going into Wilwa's most trusted ranks? It does seem to stick out, in that Wilwa looks to have been waiting for a reason to praise Kath, who had been about as submarine-like as one could be.
Kath if I'm not mistaken though, is looking at a modfire toDay if she doesn't vote. And if she's a wolf, she's been extremely uninvolved with helping her mates.

x/d with a couple of Niennas and Sallys.

[Kath]

Are you kidding Inzil? I missed yesterDay due to busyness and ... ahem ... drunkenness. But I caught up on yesterDay and I know the rules - I'm not about to cause the player list to drop any further after toDay's happenings with a Shirriff AND our true Seer gone. The latter of which by the way ... what?! What was that about? We clearly have a maniacal Zeus or one who has decided they're not on the side of the village.

Plus my vote is obvious in light of Tum being proven right about Nog.

++RIKAE

I do need to read over things in more depth, but I'm around for the next three hours to do that - I just wanted to vote now so as to avoid any possible modfiring!