WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by tp

The reason for accusing her is her first post, in which she says "What the Hades is going on here?"

Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

So the choice could be a random-one an innocent takes (count in name-recognition and relevance of the God's abilities to the situation), but it is one of many choices an innocent might have had - and the pick just happened to be the one wolf who needs to send a message to his lover!

Originally Posted by tp

When that statement was pointed to yesterday, she responded with these statements-

These explanations are essentially the same thing that Mac gave to me today- a complete and utter denial of having intended anything at all.

The fact is, Hades would have known going into the day whether or not he was going to hint, and also would have been aware that such hinting was likely to be pointed out. There would be a plan in his head for that eventuality, surely? He would have an explanation ready! So, why didn't Nerwen give a more graceful and intelligent explanation (i.e. claim that she was helping the village by giving Persephone false leadings for instance)?

No- I place her explanation and Mac's in the same boat. Both make me feel better. I may be wrong, but there it is. You may not agree, Nog, but do you see my reasoning?

I see your reasoning but I must say I do disagree, at least partially. It's true they both utterly deny any suspicions on the basis of "I didn't think it that way" - and both are as bad in that, as every wolf would have answered similarly. But I do not think they are essentially the same. Especially your point about how Hades would have done gives me a pause. I mean you might have done all those preparations but I'd guess most of us wouldn't. We all don't have pages of scenarios ready before starting a game or masterplans and their variations for every possible occurence. So from time to time the wolves need to just come up with "an explanation" - graceful or not - and comparing thpose two I find two main differences: a) Mac's explanation looks more or less honest (if you can say that in this game) and Nerwen's looks more like avoiding (especially that what was there to answer about?), and b) comparing the relative merits of the hints they're claimed to have made, you (well I at least) have a believable case with Nerwen and quite a fabricated one with Mac.


Okay. I hope that is it from my part on the issue. I'll try to read something else just to freshen my mind.



ADD: just saw Nerwen's latest... until phantom's post on the issue a moment ago, no one addressed the argument - and even he kind of went just bedside it. Read up above what I'm after (or #390, or my Gods, any post I've made on the issue). I can adjust my mind if someone shows me where my point goes wrong, but as long as no one even considers it, I'm just going to get more and more frustrated. But who cares.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

So the choice could be a random-one an innocent takes (count in name-recognition and relevance of the God's abilities to the situation), but it is one of many choices an innocent might have had - and the pick just happened to be the one wolf who needs to send a message to his lover!

Oh, for Zeus's sake! Stop. Repeating. That.

Yes, everybody has heard the "Nerwen could be Hades hinting argument". You weren't the one to come up with it, either, so stop acting like you're doing something terribly clever, that nobody else has thought of. Yes (as I realised after the event) that mention of Hades could, in principle, have been a hint.

But it wasn't. That's all there is to say. I am not Hades, and that comment was not meant to be a hint of any kind, just colour.

People aren't saying "the argument is rubbish", no, they're saying, "yes, it's an argument, but I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". Which is an entirely valid response.

And Greenie is right: you've by and large simply refused to consider alternative points of view– in fact you seem to be taking them as signs of guilt. What, for instance, is this talk of tp "framing" Mac?

I don't agree with the case he made, by the way, but do you understand that your use of "framing" there is an accusation? Did you mean it to be?

EDIT:X'd with Wilwa and Lalaith.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, for Zeus's sake! Stop. Repeating. That.

Yes, everybody has heard the "Nerwen could be Hades hinting argument". You weren't the one to come up with it, either, so stop acting like you're doing something terribly clever, that nobody else has thought of.
...
People aren't saying "the argument is rubbish", no, they're saying, "yes, it's an argument, but I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". Which is an entirely valid response.

I'm not saying I'm doing something terribly clever. One of the best reasons to have a slight trust on Mac is that he was the one to point it out. The problem is that people are not doing what you claim, eg. saying "I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". That part has been really lacking. But anyway, as I said, I'm more than fed with that issue right now. They're clearly not lynching you toDay so let it be - and I will let it be. And I'll probably vote for another toDay myself anyway.

And Greenie is right: you've by and large simply refused to consider alternative points of view– in fact you seem to be taking them as signs of guilt. What, for instance, is this talk of tp "framing" Mac?

I don't agree with the case he made, by the way, but do you understand that your use of "framing" there is an accusation? Did you mean it to be?

No. I'm taking in all the alternative points possible. I have not said "I know you're a wolf" (how could I?) and I have admitted it could be some other way (like saying that Hades might be a reasonable choice for a random God-pick). It's just you're the best - or the second best bet I have right now. And those can change -and do change as the game goes on. My frustration has been more of the nature of "don't you freakin see what I mean" (the answer is generally no - Wilwa seems to have been one of the few who realised what I meant) than that "I need to get you hanged". I have nothing against you as such - and it is possible that at some point if I get reason to trust you - I will defend you as well as I can.

I need to get a wolf hanged, a wolf. Not you especially or anyone else. But the one who looks the m0ost suspicious to me with the information available at the time.

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose. Yeah, it might be he was just testing Mac (he loves testing people but hates it when other people test him ), or whatever scenarios he had in mind. Who knows? But I thought the word "framing" was in place there.

Now, if you don't mind, we change subject. Could we?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I have admitted it could be some other way (like saying that Hades might be a reasonable choice for a random God-pick).

But not my actual explanation– I think I said this pretty clearly yesterDay– which is that it wasn't a "God-pick" at all, but rather that I was using "Hades" = abode of the dead = "hell" (roughly). I was making a joke of using a "Greek" version of the common English profanity, "what the h---". It didn't occur to me that it could be taken any other way, though I admit that was rather stupid of me. Now do you understand?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose. Yeah, it might be he was just testing Mac (he loves testing people but hates it when other people test him ), or whatever scenarios he had in mind. Who knows? But I thought the word "framing" was in place there.

Some of it was a stretch, like the "being alone in this" stuff. Yet, Mac did seem particularly occupied with the Hades/Persephone topic, and I can see how some of his early comments might look like hints. I think it was worth asking him to explain, anyway. So I do think "framing" is an extreme way to describe it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now, if you don't mind, we change subject. Could we?

Sure.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Lalaith]

Just realised... as everyone is so obsessed with hints and word-clues, I think I need to clarify that my use of the word 'curse' just there meant I was cross and any resemblance to any ww role living or dead is entirely co-incidental. Nightynight.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose.

Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.

Originally Posted by Nog

I would still come to his Eonwë -thing as the most likely seer hint (surprise-surprise, but then again I wouldn't have gone after someone that steadily for nothing).

So here's once again what Boro said about anyone who's not a wolf hurting us if dying:

Voting Eonwë he then said this:

So if an innocent dying hurts us on a positive scale (the more the worst), then someone dying and going to the negative side of the scale would not be innocent. That is downright plausible.

To me the only questions that remain, are whether Boro was the real or the false seer and did he see him as a cursed or as a wolf?

Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.

I know you like to play mind-games and test people; and that requires "making things up". Many of us do that to check how people react to them etc. And really, being the only one having an opinion and complaining about it is nothing odd (I should know!), the scripture-reference should be hewn overboard in this case just because the reference will not be familiar to most native-speakers either (unless active learned christians, I suppose?), and we all, well quite a host of us, talked about needing to find the hints (what else have we actually discussed if I may ask?). So saying that becasue of those Mac is especially suspicious? Stretched, yes. I would say more than that but sadly miss the vocabulary to more refinedly say a fabrication... framed was the one that came to mind. And you do frame when you test, don't you?

Anyway, I like it far better now.

Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).

I do actually lean on voting for Eonwë (his actions toDay haven't exactly made him look better) and do not have too much time, so could you tell me what makes you think Boro was the false seer rather than the true one? I mean he didn't know it himself which one he was and thus you can't read it from his behaviour, so what's your view?

[wilwarin538]

I feel like making a list:


Look good to me

Lalaith: I feel quite good about, makes good sense.
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.
Nerwen: though I get what Nog was trying to say, I'm going to give Nerwen the benefit of the doubt here, I really think it was just banter.
Rikae: just seems like regular Rikae to me

Under my reindeer/not enough posts

Tum
Nienna
Zil (but he's posted a lot, so I don't know why, just nothing has stood out I guess)
Lottie
Mira
Shasta

Iffy/Confused about, but not necessarily willing to vote for

Sally: I can't even explain why, it's purely a gut a thing, and the usual confusion that comes along with her.
Phantom: cause he's the Phantom, and ya never know with him. But he seems to be fairly logical, and I don't see what's so touchy about his posts. I really wouldn't want to get rid of a big poster though either. So I'll stick with being 'wary of' but not willing to get rid of yet.
Folwren: she seems to constantly be second guessing herself, or making it sound like we should overlook her posts or not take them seriously. Which I find fairly odd.
Greenie: plain and simple, I just have no idea.
Nog: mostly is quite reasonable, but he accuses tp of being touchy, and then seems quite touchy himself. And even though I understand his point about Nerwen, I just feel like he got overly sensitive about people not agreeing with him (even if there was some confusion about english curse words). But again, like the Phantom, I'd hate to get rid of a big poster so early.
Eonwe: the Dyonisis thing still is very odd, and is still taking up a lot of discussion. And his one defense that I pointed out in my first post of the Day was quite strange. I *think* I'd be willing to vote him, if not mostly just to clear up a few things.

So Eonwe is an option, but I would much rather have more solid suspicions then just a little reference, coupled with the curiosity of what he is. But I still have quite a few more hours to decide.

x'ed with bunches

[wilwarin538]

Just realised I think I forgot Mac. He would go in my OK with category, cause I don't think he was hinting at being Hades, just seems like a stretch (I get the reasoning behind thinking he was hinting, but I just don't think it's likely). And besides that he just seems reasonable.

Originally Posted by Tum

So apparently I'm a little confused. I know shocker! I thought for some reason the Aphrodite had to do with wine. I looked it up and it has to do with Love and Beauty. So please ignore the above post.

Actually, that quote still works. As the Goddess of Love and Beauty, and she said "where I get my good looks from".

x'ed with phantom

[Nogrod]

Talking about finding anomalies...

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I feel like making a list:
Look good to me
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.

Oh my! That (ADDED: Kath's post) was the most un-educated and well, muddled up post I've seen for a while. I mean she totally messed things up, like talking about Boro's Hades-hints (which?) being an issue or generally just saying that most that we have actually achieved is suspicious.

It's clear Kath has not have time to read or to think. She actually more or less admits it in her post. And that's fine. Everyone does not have time everyDay. And she's also a most lovable person. But still, and because of that, her post doesn't in any case earn that praise Wilwa makes of it. Which makes me wonder what the purpose of that praise was...

[Nogrod]

Few general issues then.

Looking at Boro's hints I find it disturbing - like Rikae suggested - that his first post was clearly thought of and he made tp the central character of it. Was it to do what he "knew" about him or just a vehicle by which to build his seer-hint? I don't know.

All that Mira thing sounds odd - as several people have said. I could see some general confusion-making behind it but to ask for protection that way? It doesn't sound like Boro - at least if that was what he "knew" thus excluding all other "knowledge" of people. Or if he just wanted to trick people thinking he was the lover of someone (someone I think entertained that idea already) - nice cover against wolves at Night but seemingly not working...

(Btw. using parenthesis with the word "knowledge" just because we don't know if he was the real or the false seer)

I would still come to his Eonwë -thing as the most likely seer hint (surprise-surprise, but then again I wouldn't have gone after someone that steadily for nothing).

So here's once again what Boro said about anyone who's not a wolf hurting us if dying:

Originally Posted by Boro answering ot Blind Guardian

Anyone who's not a wolf, who dies will probably hurt us ya know. I can say the same about myself, the question in this will be the degree of hurt. Cus right now I'd venture to guess that on a scale of 1 to 10...if I were theoretically up to be lynched, and I was, it would probably hurt the village about a 7. You, I'm pegging at a 5 so far.

Voting Eonwë he then said this:

Originally Posted by Boro

I said Blind was about a 5 on the scale of 1 to 10. Eonwe's looking like a "neg" 4

So if an innocent dying hurts us on a positive scale (the more the worst), then someone dying and going to the negative side of the scale would not be innocent. That is downright plausible.

To me the only questions that remain, are whether Boro was the real or the false seer and did he see him as a cursed or as a wolf?


Hah, I see things happening... needs to stop and read...