WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That in turn would mean that there should have been a clear enough seer-hint with clear enough guilt shown for someone who actually is a wolf. Which would actually be Eonwë There would go my theory of him being Dionysos which I have to admit I rather like still - and actually (and hopefully) he was the false seer, so it is still possible I'm right with Eonwë. But that we shall not know until later.

See my post here for why I don't think Boro dreamed a wolf. (Although, note that this is all according to my logic, and Boro, clearly, has his own.)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The other thing is, were the wolves killing him because of the seer hints? I mean now after the fact it's more or less easy to say "ahh, right youy are, he was hinting to be the seer!", but I must admit at least I missed them completely yesterDay.

Okay... I thought they were pretty much impossible to miss yesterDay; I thought he was probably bluffing, though.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

On another issue. I still think my theory about Eonwë is quite plausible, whatever you say. The rules say only: There is no remark on any loyalties he should or should not have and thus leaves it quite open for Dionysos to choose himself his loyalties (we don't know what Glirdan wrote in his role-PM to him of course).

Now knowing how so many people think that playing a wolf is the coolest thing one can do in Werewolf it's not that far-fetched to think someone being the cursed - and knowing it - would really desire for actually getting to be a wolf.

Well, some people do play it like that– Agan did when she was a Cursed who knew her role, ages ago. An awfully risky tactic though. I'm not sure I'd try it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Third one. It was not so much reasoning in any strong sense but a feeling that was based on few things. With Mac it was more or less not so much him suspecting Nerwen but Nerwen's attack on him that made me think they probably are not on the same side (cannot be proved and wolves can do that, to be sure)

I presume this is what you're talking about? I happen to know it isn't wolf-on-wolf, but even I can see how it could easily look that way. It's fairly cautious and lukewarm, whereas Mac's attack on me was a good deal more definite.

I'm not sure what I'm getting at here... maybe just that you seem to be interpreting everything in the exact opposite way to me.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

her excellent pick on Nerwen trying to influence the ideas of Zeus' alignments

Mind jogging my memory as to what my fiendish goal was at that point?

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So, are you saying that as a wolf you'd rather kill the seer than leave one of your own to get killed so early on?

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?

Don't be silly, Steve. A dreamed wolf has to be written off anyway– and I think most packs would consider it worth the risk.

Ha, that's such a dodgy argument! Maybe I should be worried about you after all...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sally

Erm, sweetie, everyone has a special role of some kind. I don’t know, but I found this statement a bit weird. (But Phantom, clueless? Obviously.)

Wow, that was a really absurd comment I made, then, wasn't it? So much so that someone (although not you or Folwren, apparently) might even conclude that it was a joke!


So, I would say the reasoning that Boro must have coupled his seer-hints with an (accidental or not) correct suspicion seems the most plausible. Someone mentioned wolves that hadn't played with him before, but I'm hard pressed to think of four people in the village who aren't familiar with Boro, and as Nog pointed out, his seer hints would have looked like a very likely bluff. There seems to be a good case that Boro didn't really behave as if he had found a wolf (in either Steve or Phantom), but remember - hinting correctly and thus tipping off the wolves wouldn't necessarily mean dreaming of one of them; some of them know their lovers' roles as well. I'm going to have to go over Boro's posts again with this in mind.
Although another thing that occurs to me is that Boro paired his seer-hints with hunter-hints, something he wouldn't do if he were actually the hunter - it would be counterproductive. So perhaps he didn't correctly point to a baddie, after all. Could be he dreamed of Mira, for instance, in which case he could also still be the false seer (indeed, probably would, because he seems to have thought Mira was a ranger, and she seems not to have been, or at least, not to have protected him.)

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Although another thing that occurs to me is that Boro paired his seer-hints with hunter-hints, something he wouldn't do if he were actually the hunter - it would be counterproductive. So perhaps he didn't correctly point to a baddie, after all.

To clarify the above - maybe the wolves concluded he wasn't bluffing because of his combination of seer and hunter hints.

[Rikae]

Also, why is Nerwen arguing that her suspicions of Mac weren't wolf-on-wolf, when that's what Nog said in the first place? Weird...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Also, why is Nerwen arguing that her suspicions of Mac weren't wolf-on-wolf, when that's what Nog said in the first place? Weird...

I guess I didn't make that clear. I'm saying that though my suspicions weren't wolf-on-wolf, I can't see why Nogrod was so sure they weren't– sure enough to conclude that Mac and I couldn't be packmates, in fact. Does that make more sense?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rikae

So perhaps he didn't correctly point to a baddie, after all. Could be he dreamed of Mira, for instance, in which case he could also still be the false seer (indeed, probably would, because he seems to have thought Mira was a ranger, and she seems not to have been, or at least, not to have protected him.)

He could have been the False Seer and have pointed to a baddie– the two aren't mutually exclusive.

EDIT:X'd with Zil and Rikae.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

He could have been the False Seer and have pointed to a baddie– the two aren't mutually exclusive.

EDIT:X'd with Zil and Rikae.

He could have, but to actually pinpoint the role (say, Phantom=Hera or Steve=the cursed) would be very unlikely.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rikae

He could have, but to actually pinpoint the role (say, Phantom=Hera or Steve=the cursed) would be very unlikely.

It would indeed be very unlikely that, by mere accident, Boro correctly pointed to a phantom Hera, particularly so early in the Day. But did he talk about Steve as the Cursed, or just as someone he wouldn't mind lynching? If the former, the whole theory breaks down. However, if he was less specific, even that weak suspicion, added to his Seer-hinting, might have been enough to get the pack after him (supposing Steve is in fact a wolf, that is).

[Macalaure]

With all the seer-talk and "7 between 1 and 10", Boro pretty much told the wolves to kill him. There were a few scenarios the wolves would have considered.

1) He's indeed a high-level gifted.
2) He's a hunter.
3) He's an ordo or low-level gifted trying to make the wolves waste a kill.
4) He's the cursed and wants to be turned.

1) Kill him right away, even if he might be protected.
2) If Eonwe is a wolf they might hesitate, but otherwise: kill. The hunters' chances are worst during Night2. The sooner to get rid of them, the better.
3) Little benefit, but "At least we won't accidentally kill one of the unknown lovers."
4) Kill, obviously, especially considering that we would probably lynch Eonwe.

[the phantom]

During the time I had last night I did a bit of reading for Hades hints and Mac stood out a couple of times.

The first statement that jumped out was this-

Originally Posted by Mac

If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.

I realize quite well that I didn't include it in its entire context, but it did in fact seem to jump out at me stand-alone, as he didn't have to say it exactly like that.

And then he said this-

Originally Posted by Mac

The lovers are trying to find each other - we have to look for hints.

Almost as if he was getting Persephone's attention- "Hey! Persephone! Be looking for hints! *ahem* "

And then there was this one that looks rather harmless, but immediately upon my second read-through stood out to me-

Originally Posted by Mac

*gives up*

That was the entire post- two words only. And since I was looking for Hades clues, I thought "Hades gives up", which of course immediately triggered the scripture where it says "Hades gives up the dead".

And then the final statement that really really stood out to me-

Originally Posted by Mac

In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover".

The middle part of the statement that stands alone between the commas I found quite interesting, "though it's frustrating to be ALONE with it". A hint that he's all alone, i.e. he's not with his lover?

What do other people think?

And of course I should ask Mac directly- what's the deal, laddie? Do you feel you were rather fixated on Lovers yesterday, particularly Hades/Persephone? If so, was it intentional?

The thing is, there could be a couple of explanations with behavior like that- the obvious thing, the less obvious but more likely by percentages thing, or the least likely by role percentage and easily forgotten thing but obvious if you re-read the rules. (Do you follow me?) So- which thing is it?