WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, it could be just flavour. It seems a pretty over-the-top way of hinting, really.


However, if he is Dionysus trying to hint to the wolves, that means he's decided to turn cobbler on us.

Edit:X'd with Nogrod.

Unless, of course, he's trying to clue us in because he's decided he wants to be good.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Unless, of course, he's trying to clue us in because he's decided he wants to be good.

But if he's turned he can't be good. And if that was indeed a hint, he had to have known the wolves could pick up on it as easily as innocents.

[Nogrod]

Well then.

I'm pretty sure Eonwë is the cursed villager and he wishes to be a wolf.

Do you remember his first post

Originally Posted by Eonwë #23

Murderers? What are we, Titans?
And how did the mortal(s) manage to get here? I'm pretty sure I didn't see Zeus didn't let them in.

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

And then there is the Dionysos-stuff.

Both scream "see who I am wolves!" to me. So he went all he could trying to get their attention and to make him their target.

The problem is as the rules say:

Originally Posted by The Rules

Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.

That seems to me quite clear. Dionysos knows about his role and can have a mindset of a wannabe-wolf (which to me seems to be the case) - and I share my feeling with Rikae here that this is not a good practise as it makes the cursed most likely into a cobbler from the beginning of the game (there are different cursed to be sure, but that's the average reaction).

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers. So Dionysos is a threat to the end of the game and after all this row it's pretty likely that if Eonwë isn't a wolf they will try him anyway. So it's just how probable we think his role as Dionysos is?

Some words on others in a moment, a vote, and then to sleep...

[Loslote]

Wilwa - seems to be helpful and all that. Not going to vote her; talkative people are awesome.

Kath - haven't gotten a sense of her yet, but not going to vote for her because I've never played with her before.

Boro - not ringing many bells, so probably won't vote for him toDay.

Keepandir of Dol Mira - not much to go on.

Zil - seems to be pretty innocent. Not going to vote for him toDay.

BeiGei - looks pretty normal. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Lottie - is awesome, like normal. Not going to vote for her toDay.

Eonwe - possible Cursed; probably won't vote for him toDay because he's probably not a wolf.

Nienna - has been pretty quiet. Possibly submarine; possibly busy. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Nerwen - seems pretty innocent. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Folwren - not getting much of a sense for her, either, but again, have never played with her and thus will not vote for her.

Tum - I have no idea. Possible submarine. Might vote for her toDay, because of her quietness and because of her lack of contribution when she does post.

Lalaith - see Kath and Foley.

Greenie - seems pretty innocent, but I'm not at all sure of anything about her. Probably won't vote her, though.

Rikae - makes sense and seems like normal Rikae. Won't vote for her toDay.

Shasta - he exists??

Mac - feels slightly off in all his posts, and isn't really making many helpful posts. Might vote for him.

Nog - makes sense, makes good points, is being logical, not going to vote for him toDay.

Phantom - I have no idea. Is definitely contributing. I've never played with him, so I'm not going to vote him toDay.

Sally - haven't seen anything really off, so probably won't vote for her toDay.

So...Mac or Tum are likely to get my vote toDay. Pretty much no one else.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

There's too much talk about the lovers. They have to be loyal to their wolves (once they know them), then they're back on the village's side once the wolf is dead. While the innocent lovers can be useful, they can also be problematic, so lynching them isn't that bad. However, children, with all the lover talk, don't forget that lynching a wolf is still much, much better!
That's all there is to say, so let's move on.

There's also too much talk about the false seer.

The Lovers and the false Seer are surely the two biggest complications of this game, not to mention the fact that the former could potentially lead us to their wolf-counterparts. Yet, you don't want them talked about?

Then there's this sequence:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Mac - Makes sense, but also makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. Especially the following:So he's implying that Nerwen is Hades (ergo a wolf), but doesn't make a move to actually start suspecting her? If you think you've caught a wolf, why just mention it offhand instead of making a case and trying to get your supposed wolf lynched? Fishy, I'd say.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

++ Macalaure

I have something on him, one argument that holds water.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also what Greenie said about Mac's remarks is something I had raised an eyebrow as well. Needs to think.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

Greenie, I didn't really suspect Nerwen yet because I only made the comment that what I said about Boro can apply to her just as well.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Boro
talks about Zeus. I remember Mith's opera-themed game, where he hinted to the wolves that he's the cobbler in his first post in a similar manner.

(...)

Boro
not buying his Zeus-explanation yet. Seen him do it before.

(...)

Nerwen
I don't buy her explanation either.

So there's two little oddities here:

1. It looks like Mac starts to suspect me only after being suspected himself for not doing so.

2. Um... what does he think Boro was trying to accomplish, exactly? Plus, he seems to have come up with his theory (which I don't understand anyway) after the event.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

1. It looks like Mac starts to suspect me only after being suspected himself for not doing so.

2. Um... what does he think Boro was trying to accomplish, exactly? Plus, he seems to have come up with his theory (which I don't understand anyway) after the event.

1. That is true, obviously, but it's coincidence. I would have gotten back to that in any case.

2. Alright, back to Boro. If you're a lover in this game and you need someone to find you, you might consider hinting. Of course, everybody expects hints, so you have to be careful. I think picking one from the evil/associated-with-evil team and beefing it up (since when is Zeus almighty anyway ) should give you the attention you want. Using Zeus' position in the pantheon, Boro made it casual and bantery enough to get away with it.

Same with your Hades-comment, just more careful/nervous.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

1. That is true, obviously, but it's coincidence. I would have gotten back to that in any case.

Hmmn. Bit of a case of "sez you", isn't it?

Originally Posted by Macalaure

2. Alright, back to Boro. If you're a lover in this game and you need someone to find you, you might consider hinting. Of course, everybody expects hints, so you have to be careful. I think picking one from the evil/associated-with-evil team and beefing it up (since when is Zeus almighty anyway ) should give you the attention you want. Using Zeus' position in the pantheon, Boro made it casual and bantery enough to get away with it.

So you're saying that Boro is either Aphrodite, Ares or Hades and was hinting that he was a different lover entirely in the hope that his counterpart would somehow catch on? A bit labyrinthine, no? (Well, I suppose that's appropriate..)

EDIT:X'd with a host, making this rather redundant.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So you're saying that Boro is either Aphrodite, Ares or Hades and was hinting that he was a different lover entirely in the hope that his counterpart would somehow catch on? A bit labyrinthine, no? (Well, I suppose that's appropriate..)

Hephaistos, not Ares. In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Hephaistos, not Ares. In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.

It sort of makes sense when you explain it that way, but it's something that you make fit a reason, not something that Boro would come up with as a way of hinting. There are tons of other ways of hinting that make a lot more sense and are a lot more likely for him to actually think of. The Zeus thing is just so random, and so unlikely that his prospective lover'd pick up on it, that I don't think he would have thought of using it as a hint. Especially not his only hint.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers. .

Are you sure? Where did you get this?

[Nogrod]

Nerwen's Hades declaration really stands out there and makes her my number one wolf-suspect. On top of that there were only Boro's Zeus-comments (which make no sense for a wolf or a lover to make) and Eonwë's Dionysos-reference (which was way later than the initial banter). And this is a game where several people would need to hint at their mates or possible allies! So it would be incredible if no-one tried to make a contact!

Of others I'm more confused about.

Lottie I remember suspecting for wrong reasons before but there is something in her posts that I can't quite put my finger on which makes me suspect her (fex. how she commented on the Eonwë-issue, but there was more as well, earlier).

Moreover, Rikae is spot on to the game and I really enjoyed her little argument with tp, but there's something in her posting as well that makes me a bit nervous (like always), namely the way she brought the Boro-issue back or how she turned around on it - or how she reacted to the Eonwë discussion. It's just a bad hunch maybe.

Also what Mac said about Greenie (and she said about him) - heh, at least I don't think they are Zeus and Hera... even if the arguing might be as like them in the stories... (not probably voting either of them, though)

Then there are the cohorts of those who have said little of any real value (eg. leading up to new ways of looking things or discussing things - or even contributing their own in some discussions). It's always so hard with them. Nothing to say when there is nothing said. But if you just want to "check" someone you can have no read on, you should do it earlier than later as the going gets tougher by Day and many feel - justifiably - that we can not afford blind checkings later on.

I'll take a fast tour around to check those less contributing ones before making any vote. Meanwhile it would be nice to hear from you others. It's such quiet.

Heh, talk of the devil... x'd with four last posts...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

I still don't get this, Mac. Why would Borolover think talking about Zeus would indicate to his beloved he could be their counterpart?

x/d with KeeperMira

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I still don't get this, Mac. Why would Borolover think talking about Zeus would indicate to his beloved he could be their counterpart?

x/d with KeeperMira

I might be missing something here, but don't Zeus and Hera know who each other are? If that's the case then there's no reason for Borolover to be hinting to his counterpart.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

I might be missing something here, but don't Zeus and Hera know who each other are? If that's the case then there's no reason for Borolover to be hinting to his counterpart.

Exactly.

EDIT- saw the response above

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

(since when is Zeus almighty anyway )

Zeus is almighty, or at least he can be seen as such. King of the gods and all that. Boro was probably IC bantering. As a hint, it really wasn't very functional. As banter, it makes sense.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

I might be missing something here, but don't Zeus and Hera know who each other are? If that's the case then there's no reason for Borolover to be hinting to his counterpart.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Exactly.

EDIT- saw the response above

I was going to post the same thing. I'm so glad I made the list cause it made all this Zeus talk even more interesting. Is it just something to stir up the pot and add confusion?

Edit: xed with Lottie

[Inziladun]

I actually need to be going to bed soonish. 5 AM comes early.

I'm not making a list, there are too many bloody people.

Who stands out at the moment:

Boro- Confusing. Something doesn't sit right about him, but I'm hesitant to vote for him at this point.

Mac- As usual, I want to lynch him just for being Mac. Not toDay, though.

Eönwë- The bit about Dionysus has me pretty well convinced he's the Cursed, but as I see it, he's no threat until he's turned, and we should know when that happens, or at least know it's possibly happened.

BG- Popping in and out, no substance whatsoever. Very tempting to vote her.

x/d with Nog and Nerwen

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen about Zeus

Is he allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?

I had that spotted as well Rikae, so it's possible it was not for nothing... At the time when people were thinking whether the innocent-lovers should take the side of the village Nerwen went on with this. I had just forgotten this.

So I would say you two are not on the same side, at least you do not know it even if you were - well how to define sides in the first place in this kind of game anyway? What I was trying to say? That you two are not both (edit: added "both") wolves... that's more or less what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Are you sure? Where did you get this?

From the rules, as I quoted them:

Originally Posted by the rules

Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.

Or can you interpret this any other way?

Heh, interesting to see how different interpretations two people can make on the same subject (seeing what you found on Boro with tp and Lalaith - the comments of which I thought were more or less out of the discussion)...

Originally Posted by Inzil

I still don't get this, Mac. Why would Borolover think talking about Zeus would indicate to his beloved he could be their counterpart?

Exactly, I mean if he was just another lover of another wolf (or the other way around?). I hate suspecting you (really) and even if you say Rikae explained why you did that I must say I didn't get it, exactly for this reason. That just makes no sense - heh, as you said in your initial post it didn't... But why all the explanations then, afterwards?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

From the rules, as I quoted them: Or can you interpret this any other way?

Well, I can: "I will not reveal (the identity of) the Cursed". Which is not the same as "I will not reveal if the Cursed has been turned".

But perhaps Thanatos will be kind enough to clarify this point?

EDIT:X'd with Mac and Zil.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Noggins

Or can you interpret this any other way?

Definitely. I would interpret that as meaning that the dead (or dreamed) cursed will be listed as either an ordo or a wolf, depending on whether xe's been turned. Doesn't say whether the event of the cursed being turned (which wouldn't actually reveal the cursed's identity) would show up in a narration. Pretty often things like hunter kills and ranger saves show up in the narration, so it's entirely possible a cursed being turned would as well. Last I checked, the question had been posted on the admin thread, though, so we'll see.

EDIT: X'd with Nerwen.

[Rikae]

I can see where Mac is coming form. After all, Zeus is a wolf's lover, so "allied to Zeus" could = wolf's lover. However, I still don't think that's what Boro meant - the way he phrased it just doesn't fit. He connected it to Phantom, which Mac will probably say was intended to disguise it, but which would also have the effect of garbling his hint.

[wilwarin538]

So, the False Seer discussion totally confuses me, so I'm not going to touch that.

The Lover thing seems to have taken up alot of the Day, which I guess makes sense since it's such an important part of the game. It just seems to have taken on a bit *too* much of the day, but oh well.

Boro makes more sense now, since I think he was using 'alied with Zeus' to be in reference of the 'good side'. So I'm not going to push it more. Same for Nerwen, with the Hades thing, as far as I can tell it was banter.

Now Eonwe. Well that's something else. For him to be so blatant if he's the Cursed he must kow that if he gets turned we're just going to lynch him. So maybe this is his way of staying allied to the village? Giving himself up so he doesn't have to be evil? Or he just partied to much, and it was also banter.

That one just seems different to me than the other two. But if he's the Cursed we shouldn't be killing him. Well, there is another option for what he could be doing (to help the village). But if I'm right than me saying it could kind of ruin it, so I'll stay quite for now.

As for who to vote for. No idea right now. Maybe Mac, since the Boro-Zeus thing makes no sense as a Lover hint. But that's kind of slim. Maybe BG, because I don't like it when people complain about it being slow and then don't say anything when there's talking. I'm gonna read some more, but I'll be around for the next hour or so, so I'll wait as long as possible.

x'posted with a few

[wilwarin538]

Oh. about when the cursed dies.

So what doesn't make sense to me. I would assume that when someone dies Glirdy will say something like "Downer X - Thanatos" in the deadlist. Since some of the roles are harder to categorise without saying the name of the god, and since even just saying Wolf would leave question what with the Lover situation. So when the cursed dies, if he suddenly says "wolf" or "ordo", when he's just been saying god names before, won't that seem a bit odd? Therefore wouldn't he have to reveal them as the cursed? He just wouldn't need to say wheter it is wolf-Dyonisis or ordo-Dyonisis, therefore keeping the mystery. We'd know the cursed is dead, just not whether they had been turned yet.

Atleast that's how I would do it. I just don't see how else he can keep the Cursed's identity hidden.

x'ed with BG and Tum

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Oh. about when the cursed dies.

So what doesn't make sense to me. I would assume that when someone dies Glirdy will say something like "Downer X - Thanatos" in the deadlist. Since some of the roles are harder to categorise without saying the name of the god, and since even just saying Wolf would leave question what with the Lover situation. So when the cursed dies, if he suddenly says "wolf" or "ordo", when he's just been saying god names before, won't that seem a bit odd? Therefore wouldn't he have to reveal them as the cursed? He just wouldn't need to say wheter it is wolf-Dyonisis or ordo-Dyonisis, therefore keeping the mystery. We'd know the cursed is dead, just not whether they had been turned yet.

Atleast that's how I would do it. I just don't see how else he can keep the Cursed's identity hidden.

x'ed with BG and Tum

This is a good point - it makes me wonder if he didn't think it through? It still doesn't make sense that "won't reveal the cursed" should mean "will reveal who the cursed is, but not when/whether xe is turned."

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

As for who to vote for. No idea right now. Maybe Mac, since the Boro-Zeus thing makes no sense as a Lover hint. But that's kind of slim.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one, dear. What Mac said about Boro leaving a Lover hint does make sense (even though it took me fooorever to get). I'm still pretty convinced it was innocent banter, but it does make sense.

I'm also not stoked on this suspicion of Steve, for the same reasons as I wasn't stoked on suspecting Boro and Nerwen for what could very well be innocent Day 1 banter.

People I won't be voting for toDay:
Boro
Nerwen
Steve
(All for reasons previously stated.)
Shasta - I don't vote for people who don't appear. At least not Day 1.

Who I probably will be voting for toDay unless something better comes up within the next hour or so:
Blind Guardian - don't be posting that you want people to provide you with substance and then don't do anything to spark discussion.

EDIT: xed since the wilwa post I quoted. And bollox, that now looks suspiciously like bandwagoning.

[Nogrod]

Just going to bed while left the PC open... and I realised I wanted to see the tally. So why not send it to you as well? I think it bears watching...

Foley -> Eonwë
Greenie -> Macalaure
Kath -> Blind Guardian
Lalaith -> Boro
Inzil -> Blind Guardian 2
Nienna -> Eonwë 2
Sally -> Blind Guardian 3
Nogrod -> Nerwen
Wilwa -> Blind Guardian 4

Those with votes have their highest vote bolded...

I really think Wilwa's last one looks suspicious - and Sally's looks like a throwaway...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

I'd have to disagree with you on that one, dear. What Mac said about Boro leaving a Lover hint does make sense (even though it took me fooorever to get). I'm still pretty convinced it was innocent banter, but it does make sense.

I'm also not stoked on this suspicion of Steve, for the same reasons as I wasn't stoked on suspecting Boro and Nerwen for what could very well be innocent Day 1 banter.

People I won't be voting for toDay:
Boro

Rest assured you still know me quite well, thanks dear. Now, if I know you well, hopefully you read this ere the night ends, and hopefully it doesn't confuse you. Don't hestitate to pick me, sorry for any trouble, I gotta know.