Did Gandalf have a Plan "B"? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

deagol · 07-21-2010, 07:25 AM

'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.'

I think if we expand this to mean that "hobbits" were meant to have it we get a clearer picture of what is actually going on. I like the idea of a substitute hobbit. I'm not sure that would necessarily have been Sam, as his allegiance was clearly to Frodo, and he had promised Gandalf to protect Frodo -- not the Ring. But it's clear throughout the saga that hobbits -- Bilbo, Frodo, and even Sam for a bit -- have some peculiar resistance to the Ring's wiles that even elves -- and certainly not mortal men -- do not possess.

Galadriel55 · 01-14-2011, 08:23 PM

I agree with deagol that Gandalf would have found another hobbit to do the job. He seems to be one of the few who don't underestimate this race, isn't he? I guess that he was counting on his persuasive skills, the seriousness of the matter, Frodo wanting to see Bilbo again, and Took descent, and didn't really worry about Frodo refusing to "do the job".

narfforc · 01-15-2011, 05:21 AM

I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission.

Sarumian · 02-27-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission.

Which means, Sauron wins control over Middle-earth and eliminates, seduces or captures all other majar around. If he was happy with ruling only that continent, they probably could send another mission just to keep him busy with home affairs. But if he is able to consolidate all resources and attack the West once again, an atomic bomb will be the final solution as it happened to Numenor once upon a time

Mumriken · 07-21-2012, 08:25 AM

Oh yeah if Sauron did manage to conquer middle earth we would loose the last noble men and our dwarves/hobbits. I'm sure the valas would intervene before that happened though. If the istari completely failed they would send over some vala to take down Sauron alone. Actually I'm not sure why they didn't do this in the first place. They could have sent orome into mordor and forced Sauron into submission. It's not like the battle would last for long, like 5 second and Sauron would be crying for daddy morgoth. xD

blantyr · 07-21-2012, 09:19 AM

In the early days of the First and Second Ages, when Tolkien wasn't so mature as a writer or as a person, the way to resolve things was with brute force. Even then the Valar were more reluctant than many a mythical pantheon to dirty their hands and settle issues themselves. Still, by the time Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings, the notion that good shall triumph over evil because the good guys are bigger, stronger, tougher and more numerous than the bad guys wasn't the theme he was after. Quite the opposite. While people like Aragorn and Gandalf were hardly 95 pound weaklings, the Enemy was generally perceived as being the mightier force.

At least until the Ents awakened and found they were strong, or until the horns of Rohan blew on the edges of Pelennor...

In every Lord of the Rings role playing game I've encountered there has been some form of 'fate' game mechanic. Generally, so many times a game session, the good guys blessed by the Valar are allowed, when the dice fall wrong, to pick the dice up and roll again.

This reflects a notion that the Valar are making it possible for things to turn out all right... assuming enough people make enough correct choices.

Which reflects an underlying theme of the books which gets ignored in the movies. In the books, even though the good guys distrust and hold themselves isolated from other good guys, when the time comes just about everyone makes the correct choices while remaining true to their nature. In the books, the Ents take their time and with all due consideration and thought decide to tear down Isengard. In the movies the hobbits goad them into getting hasty. In the books, Denathor sends the Red Arrow to Rohan calling for aid. In the movies, Gandalf and a hobbit light the beacons of Gondor using stealth, summoning Rohan through trickery.

That to me is a deep underlying theme of the work. If everyone recognizes their duty, the Valar will subtly guide a path to victory. Well, not all of it was subtle. Wind from the sea cleared the air before the Battle of Pelennor, and brought Aragorn and other reinforcements up the river. I don't see the Valar as being totally subtle and passive, as totally refusing to intervene.

Yet the themes of the book involve everyman and every god being willing to do their part.

Plan B? The Valar manifesting physically and thwapping everything in their path? OK. Sure. Maybe they talked about the possibility over supper in the land of the ever living. But would Tolkien ever write that book? Is that what he was saying with his creation?

No way.

littlemanpoet · 07-21-2012, 01:37 PM

I like Blantyr's points. But I want to add something.

What Tolkien presented was not plan A, nor B, nor C. It was more like Plan T.

Many, many people failed of their duty before only nine people - make that eight because Boromir failed for a short while that almost cost the West everything.

What really happened was that the West made it through, by the skin of their teeth, long after plan a had failed, long after B, C, D, and so forth had failed.

Mithalwen · 07-22-2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Actually I'm not sure why they didn't do this in the first place. They could have sent orome into mordor and forced Sauron into submission. It's not like the battle would last for long, like 5 second and Sauron would be crying for daddy morgoth. xD

I think there are two reasons why not. I think there is a strong implication throughout the books that if an individual of a similar status overthrew Sauron they would inevitably become a tyrant in his place no matter how benevolent the intentions they might start out with. Gandalf and Galadriel both say this when they have the opportunity of taking the ring and we have the evidence of Saruman's behaviour to see that their fears were not groundless.

There is also the sense that it is time for the younger children, Men (and by extension Hobbits as essential a sub-group) governed their own affairs and solve their own problems. It is the transition point effectively out of mythology into the modern world. The "supernatural" races are going away or diminishing, fading. Men albeit with an elvish strain are taking control. Though the king is restored he is devolving power for example to the hobbits (thought I always thought it a tad impractical if men really couldn't even pass through the Shire especially if they were opening uo Fornost Erain). Think of Gandalf telling the hobbits that sorting out the problems in the Shire was what they had been trained for.

Puddleglum · 07-23-2012, 02:29 PM

The concern about becoming another tyrant dealt with someone overthrowing Sauron "by use of the Ring". The Valar could have sailed in (as they did in the War of Wrath) and done the deed without that danger - hasd they chosen to.

Your second reason, Mithalwen, comes closer to explaining it, I think - but is still only a part of it. Christopher Tolkien comments in Unfinished Tales, in the essay on the Istari, (and, I believe more is in HoME) about the Valar rethinking their ancient decision to try and shield the Eldar by their main force and glory (through the invitation to Valinor, primarily) and their conclusion that such was, in the end, an error - not in accordance with the purpose of Eru and not for the ultimate best of the Eruhini (The Elves and Men).

We could speculate about why such might have been the case - that the Elves first and later men (as the "Dominion of Men" came and the Elves faded) should make their own ways in the world not under wings of the Valar who would smack down any threat or evil that might threaten the children.

But the essay makes it clear that this consideration was behind the prohibition against Gandalf and the others trying the master other peoples through raw displays of power and glory. So it seems pretty plain that the same prohibition would apply against Orome (or Tulkas or even Eonwe) sailing in at the head a vast army of Maia to rescue the Elves and Men from Sauron's shadow.

So, I would say your second reason is completely true - as far as it goes. Only, I think the truth includes what you said and goes a bit further.

01-14-2011, 08:23 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,517	I agree with deagol that Gandalf would have found another hobbit to do the job. He seems to be one of the few who don't underestimate this race, isn't he? I guess that he was counting on his persuasive skills, the seriousness of the matter, Frodo wanting to see Bilbo again, and Took descent, and didn't really worry about Frodo refusing to "do the job". __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

01-15-2011, 05:21 AM	#3
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

07-21-2012, 09:19 AM	#6
blantyr Wight Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter. Posts: 208	Duty In the early days of the First and Second Ages, when Tolkien wasn't so mature as a writer or as a person, the way to resolve things was with brute force. Even then the Valar were more reluctant than many a mythical pantheon to dirty their hands and settle issues themselves. Still, by the time Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings, the notion that good shall triumph over evil because the good guys are bigger, stronger, tougher and more numerous than the bad guys wasn't the theme he was after. Quite the opposite. While people like Aragorn and Gandalf were hardly 95 pound weaklings, the Enemy was generally perceived as being the mightier force. At least until the Ents awakened and found they were strong, or until the horns of Rohan blew on the edges of Pelennor... In every Lord of the Rings role playing game I've encountered there has been some form of 'fate' game mechanic. Generally, so many times a game session, the good guys blessed by the Valar are allowed, when the dice fall wrong, to pick the dice up and roll again. This reflects a notion that the Valar are making it possible for things to turn out all right... assuming enough people make enough correct choices. Which reflects an underlying theme of the books which gets ignored in the movies. In the books, even though the good guys distrust and hold themselves isolated from other good guys, when the time comes just about everyone makes the correct choices while remaining true to their nature. In the books, the Ents take their time and with all due consideration and thought decide to tear down Isengard. In the movies the hobbits goad them into getting hasty. In the books, Denathor sends the Red Arrow to Rohan calling for aid. In the movies, Gandalf and a hobbit light the beacons of Gondor using stealth, summoning Rohan through trickery. That to me is a deep underlying theme of the work. If everyone recognizes their duty, the Valar will subtly guide a path to victory. Well, not all of it was subtle. Wind from the sea cleared the air before the Battle of Pelennor, and brought Aragorn and other reinforcements up the river. I don't see the Valar as being totally subtle and passive, as totally refusing to intervene. Yet the themes of the book involve everyman and every god being willing to do their part. Plan B? The Valar manifesting physically and thwapping everything in their path? OK. Sure. Maybe they talked about the possibility over supper in the land of the ever living. But would Tolkien ever write that book? Is that what he was saying with his creation? No way. Last edited by blantyr; 07-22-2012 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Correct a whopsie.

07-21-2010, 07:25 AM	#1
deagol Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 24	'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.' I think if we expand this to mean that "hobbits" were meant to have it we get a clearer picture of what is actually going on. I like the idea of a substitute hobbit. I'm not sure that would necessarily have been Sam, as his allegiance was clearly to Frodo, and he had promised Gandalf to protect Frodo -- not the Ring. But it's clear throughout the saga that hobbits -- Bilbo, Frodo, and even Sam for a bit -- have some peculiar resistance to the Ring's wiles that even elves -- and certainly not mortal men -- do not possess.

07-21-2012, 08:25 AM	#5
Mumriken Banned Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 78	Oh yeah if Sauron did manage to conquer middle earth we would loose the last noble men and our dwarves/hobbits. I'm sure the valas would intervene before that happened though. If the istari completely failed they would send over some vala to take down Sauron alone. Actually I'm not sure why they didn't do this in the first place. They could have sent orome into mordor and forced Sauron into submission. It's not like the battle would last for long, like 5 second and Sauron would be crying for daddy morgoth. xD

07-21-2012, 01:37 PM	#7
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I like Blantyr's points. But I want to add something. What Tolkien presented was not plan A, nor B, nor C. It was more like Plan T. Many, many people failed of their duty before only nine people - make that eight because Boromir failed for a short while that almost cost the West everything. What really happened was that the West made it through, by the skin of their teeth, long after plan a had failed, long after B, C, D, and so forth had failed.

07-23-2012, 02:29 PM	#9
Puddleglum Wight Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 145	The concern about becoming another tyrant dealt with someone overthrowing Sauron "by use of the Ring". The Valar could have sailed in (as they did in the War of Wrath) and done the deed without that danger - hasd they chosen to. Your second reason, Mithalwen, comes closer to explaining it, I think - but is still only a part of it. Christopher Tolkien comments in Unfinished Tales, in the essay on the Istari, (and, I believe more is in HoME) about the Valar rethinking their ancient decision to try and shield the Eldar by their main force and glory (through the invitation to Valinor, primarily) and their conclusion that such was, in the end, an error - not in accordance with the purpose of Eru and not for the ultimate best of the Eruhini (The Elves and Men). We could speculate about why such might have been the case - that the Elves first and later men (as the "Dominion of Men" came and the Elves faded) should make their own ways in the world not under wings of the Valar who would smack down any threat or evil that might threaten the children. But the essay makes it clear that this consideration was behind the prohibition against Gandalf and the others trying the master other peoples through raw displays of power and glory. So it seems pretty plain that the same prohibition would apply against Orome (or Tulkas or even Eonwe) sailing in at the head a vast army of Maia to rescue the Elves and Men from Sauron's shadow. So, I would say your second reason is completely true - as far as it goes. Only, I think the truth includes what you said and goes a bit further.