betraying Gondolin

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I might be inclined to say that Húrin was an unwitting informant that provided useful but not specific information, rather like revealing to someone that Topeka is in the state of Kansas. Maeglin was a traitor, and knew precisely what he was doing; he provided exact directions, showing that the direct route into Topeka was I-70. The residents who wanted to keep their location secret would not thank either of them, but if Turgon believed that even the general location of Gondolin would remain hidden forever, then he was allowing hubris to overcome common sense. Which of course he did, ignoring Ulmo's warning. In the bigger picture, one could view the curse upon Húrin as being a part of the already extant curse upon the Noldor, since it did play a part in the eventual manifestation of that curse upon Turgon and his realm.

Hmm, I think the heat may be cooking my brain....

[Galin]

OK, that sort of agrees with my reading of the 1977 Silmarillion. And last night I read the entry provided by Hammond and Scull in their companion (Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin), and it too helped confirm my reading of the tale as published. Christopher Tolkien (commentary The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales) even notes that: Thus in the Silmarillion Morgoth remained in ignorance until Maeglin's capture of the precise location of Gondolin, and Maeglin's information was of correspondingly greater value to him, as it was also of greater damage to the city.

That said, my main point includes mentally taking QN out of the tale however, and substituting instead the information from the two notes, in which (I note) that Maeglin provides nothing concerning location -- or at least nothing that seemed of any use to Morgoth concerning location.

The Silmarillion is a compilation of two texts here, but the very act of including both descriptions arguably colours the true impact of Húrin's part. If one is going to use QN instead of the notes (as was done), naturally Húrin's role must be mitigated -- his information must be 'general' (too general to come with war?), for otherwise Maeglin's information on location will be 'stale news'.

It's not a moral comparison between Húrin and Maeglin, but a possible new connection of the Túrin saga to the Fall of Gondolin (IIRC in earlier versions Húrin's release does not result in revealing the location of Gondolin in any degree). Maeglin still has his part, but he is now 'too late' to deliver the whereabouts of the city.

This actually hails back to the early Fall of Gondolin from The Book of Lost Tales in a way -- not exactly, but there Morgoth knew where the city was before capturing Maeglin.

Admittedly, perhaps there would be more to Maeglin's part in any detailed long prose version, for example. Maybe Maeglin did have important revelations concerning where the city was, important in that their detail was needed to truly find Gondolin, as the notes from WH are relatively brief in any case.

But I think it's possible, at least, considering the importance the Túrin-saga seemed to have for JRRT according to CJRT, that the notes are in reaction to a changed idea, in that Húrin gave Morgoth all he really needed (it is simpler at least, from a storial perspective) to attack Gondolin, with Maeglin forced to give help in other areas to buy his freedom.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

One also has to consider the source of Morgoth's claim that he already had sufficient information. Not Húrin, but rather Morgoth himself. He's the ultimate liar, being the original. He may well be playing Maeglin with that statement, since if Maeglin goes away believing what Morgoth says, he could be less careful, thinking that there is no need to hide what Morgoth already knows, and thereby revealing what Morgoth wanted to know, without any possibility of duplicity on Maeglin's part. Double dealing would not be beyond him, and I don't think any version of the text does not allow for this, even if it fails to make a point of it.

[Galin]

That's possible, but what is the reason to think that Morgoth is lying here? Why say that Morgoth 'must' answer in this way? he 'must' lie? again the text that inspires this statement includes that Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt... which gives me little reason to think Morgoth is lying about this.

In The Book of Lost Tales the information about Gondolin from Meglin concerns the fashion of the plain and city, of the host, and the hoard of weapons, and he tells that Melko's host could not hope to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win into the plain. He helps Melko devise a plan. The idea that Maeglin's treachery would involve other factors beyond location would not be a wholly new departure, but rather more like a return to an earlier notion (in general at least).


I also find Christopher Tolkien's choice of phrasing here interesting (the first is from commentary to WH, followed by the text from QN -- the second from commentary to the Tale of Years):

'Thus the story in Q was changed (IV. 143)'



'510 The story that the site of Gondolin was revealed to Morgoth by Maeglin was later changed: see pp. 272-3 and note 30.'

To my mind that's a rather simple way of putting things if the story was not notably changed.

If Húrin's words were simply too general to be of real use, then how much has the story 'changed' if Maeglin essentially still provides the needed location of Gondolin?

[Archaic Elf]

There is some great information posted in this thread. I always just thought that Hurin may have inadvertently tipped Morgoth off to the location of Gondolin, but Morgoth would not have been able to find a way through the mountains without Maeglin.

I wouldn't hold too much against Hurin though, since he was not really thinking clearly after years of torture. If blame is cast on Hurin, then he could similarly be partially blamed for the fall of Thingol and Melian's kingdom because he gave Thingol the Nauglamir, which led to the fight with the Dwarves and the fall of the two rulers. Doriath was at risk from that moment forward.

The fall of Doriath was just a series of bad circumstances. The fall of Gondolin...that's another matter.

[Findegil]

I think that in a way Húrin is to be blamed for all the Fall of Gondolin, the fall of Brethil and the Fall of Doriath, also in both cases other had a part as well.

When revealing Gondolins position, Húrin must have known what he did. He did endure 26 years pf torture to exactly that information and than he reveals carless in the wild.

And concerning Brethil and Doriath we learn in The Wanderings of Húrin that Húrin went to both with the intention to revenge the wrongs done to his son and family as he saw them (with the crocked view of Morgoth eye).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

I always just thought that Hurin may have inadvertently tipped Morgoth off to the location of Gondolin, but Morgoth would not have been able to find a way through the mountains without Maeglin.

OK, but how have you arrived at this interpretation? In the notes to The Wanderings of Húrin, it appears, at least, that Maeglin reveals nothing about location that Morgoth did not already know.

CJRT appears to realize that the reader of The Fall of Gondolin will already naturally think that Húrin has revealed the whereabouts of Gondolin, so if Maeglin is also to do so (if QN is retained), it must be the very location (the word very added by CJRT) -- the reader naturally comes to the conclusion then that Húrin's part was too general -- a conclusion I agree with, based on an interpretation of the 1977 Silmarillion however.


The challenge is: mentally take out QN here (treat it as if it was not used in the 1977 Silmarillion), replace it with the WH notes -- combined with the WH text, what is the interpretation of the story now?