Gandalf Vs. The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ondoher420 · 07-08-2010, 08:38 AM

Gandalf was made to look ridiculously weak in front of the WK!!! What has Gandalf the White have to fear from the WK as he defeated the balrog in his grey form!! Surely Gandalf is very much powerful than the nazgul

alatar · 07-09-2010, 09:03 AM

And what of Dumbledore? I've not read the books, but I get the impression from the Harry Potter movies that, at any time, the wizard Dumbledore could step in and prevail in any situation that Harry or Hogwarts finds itself in.

And yet there always seems to be more than enough for Harry and friends to do.

Dakêsîntrah · 08-07-2010, 10:46 PM

Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh on the Witch-king's reaction to Gandalf in the Extended Edition audio commentary:

Boyens: ["In the book it works on a different level...]

Walsh: ["There's something disempowering about a character who arrives and threatens to do something and then flies away again...Having not actually - well, he broke Gandalf's staff, but - there was just this sense...it made him less frightening..and less potent as a character. It's like an event written to happen, but then didn't. And we really felt it in the pacing of the film."]

Peter Jackson adds: ["We just wanted to make it more exciting and cinematic."]

So the idea of Jackson and Co. is to make the Witch-king more menacing. Give them credit; they tried to add something to the very little screentime the Witch-king was granted.

If they would have filmed the confrontation as it happened in the book, then it would have been a nearly wasteful bit of scenes. As a film director, why would you have one or two scenes of a book rendition of WK vs. Gandalf, building up even more tension than what was actually filmed, and then ending it with the two going separate ways with no actual outcome? Well, that's essentially how it happened in the book, but it certainly wouldn't carry any merit to advancing plot in a movie!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-11-2010, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakêsîntrah

If they would have filmed the confrontation as it happened in the book, then it would have been a nearly wasteful bit of scenes. As a film director, why would you have one or two scenes of a book rendition of WK vs. Gandalf, building up even more tension than what was actually filmed, and then ending it with the two going separate ways with no actual outcome? Well, that's essentially how it happened in the book, but it certainly wouldn't carry any merit to advancing plot in a movie!

You have the two commanders of the opposing armies set up against each other; but there's no need to have them fight each other one-on-one if it didn't happen in the book - and it didn't.

The plot doesn't lose anything if no blow is struck between them.

It's this type of thinking that had the director seriously considering wheeling out Sauron himself to fight Aragorn at the Black Gate.

alatar · 09-05-2010, 07:17 PM

If only I had stuck with the theater version!

Morthoron · 09-05-2010, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

If only I had stuck with the theater version!

I believe this thread to be a bewitched thing,
For it will not die a natural death;
Like Angmar's wraith crown-ed the cold Witch King,
Who for an age drew not a live man's breath.

Doeth!

cfwmac007 · 11-19-2010, 06:26 AM

i believe the movie had a more accurate then people want to give. it is true both sauron and gandalf are maiar and so are balrogs and good ol' tom. sauron is far from the strongest of the maiar, but is the powerful in speech craft. the balrogs were the stronges of the maiar that came under the control of melkor. when sauron had the rings made tainted all but the 3 for the elves. sauron put is will and power into the ring so that his will would extend to the others that wore the other rings. 1000 years after sauron's defeat by last army of elves and men, the istari came to middle earth. the istari are 5 maiar sent by the valar to stop the coming great darkness. The istari are different than the other maiar that came to middle earth. The istari were limited to form of men and the powers that be found within the mortal world (talk about a handicap). Sauron does not have this limitation. The witch king was the most powerful of the witches even before given one of the nine. The ring would farther augment his ablities. to me in the books when gandalf tells pippen about the prophecy that he, in his heavily handicapped form, he did not seem to sure himself if he could defeat the witch-king. this comes from bestiary that david day put together, and it has an index to where to go in tolkiens works to find the information. i ready the lord of the rings more the twenty times (jurassic park i read almost 40 times). gandalf in middle earth is far from invincible and his body is still mortal. he did die after the fight with the belrog and in his words " he was sent back", this is also why he is a little confused when he is first called gandalf upon his return... you know like moving from one house to a bigger one, you still have everything (one hopes) you just got to find it again.

my biggest complaint was the lack of sam using the ring in the movies. in the book he uses the ring directly under sauron's nose, and sauron is none the wiser.

07-09-2010, 09:03 AM	#2
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	And what of Dumbledore? I've not read the books, but I get the impression from the Harry Potter movies that, at any time, the wizard Dumbledore could step in and prevail in any situation that Harry or Hogwarts finds itself in. And yet there always seems to be more than enough for Harry and friends to do. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

09-05-2010, 07:17 PM	#5
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	If only I had stuck with the theater version! __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

07-08-2010, 08:38 AM	#1
Ondoher420 Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Minas Tirith Posts: 1	Gandalf was made to look ridiculously weak in front of the WK!!! What has Gandalf the White have to fear from the WK as he defeated the balrog in his grey form!! Surely Gandalf is very much powerful than the nazgul

08-07-2010, 10:46 PM	#3
Dakêsîntrah Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Armenelos Posts: 29	Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh on the Witch-king's reaction to Gandalf in the Extended Edition audio commentary: Boyens: ["In the book it works on a different level...] Walsh: ["There's something disempowering about a character who arrives and threatens to do something and then flies away again...Having not actually - well, he broke Gandalf's staff, but - there was just this sense...it made him less frightening..and less potent as a character. It's like an event written to happen, but then didn't. And we really felt it in the pacing of the film."] Peter Jackson adds: ["We just wanted to make it more exciting and cinematic."] So the idea of Jackson and Co. is to make the Witch-king more menacing. Give them credit; they tried to add something to the very little screentime the Witch-king was granted. If they would have filmed the confrontation as it happened in the book, then it would have been a nearly wasteful bit of scenes. As a film director, why would you have one or two scenes of a book rendition of WK vs. Gandalf, building up even more tension than what was actually filmed, and then ending it with the two going separate ways with no actual outcome? Well, that's essentially how it happened in the book, but it certainly wouldn't carry any merit to advancing plot in a movie!

11-19-2010, 06:26 AM	#7
cfwmac007 Newly Deceased Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3	i believe the movie had a more accurate then people want to give. it is true both sauron and gandalf are maiar and so are balrogs and good ol' tom. sauron is far from the strongest of the maiar, but is the powerful in speech craft. the balrogs were the stronges of the maiar that came under the control of melkor. when sauron had the rings made tainted all but the 3 for the elves. sauron put is will and power into the ring so that his will would extend to the others that wore the other rings. 1000 years after sauron's defeat by last army of elves and men, the istari came to middle earth. the istari are 5 maiar sent by the valar to stop the coming great darkness. The istari are different than the other maiar that came to middle earth. The istari were limited to form of men and the powers that be found within the mortal world (talk about a handicap). Sauron does not have this limitation. The witch king was the most powerful of the witches even before given one of the nine. The ring would farther augment his ablities. to me in the books when gandalf tells pippen about the prophecy that he, in his heavily handicapped form, he did not seem to sure himself if he could defeat the witch-king. this comes from bestiary that david day put together, and it has an index to where to go in tolkiens works to find the information. i ready the lord of the rings more the twenty times (jurassic park i read almost 40 times). gandalf in middle earth is far from invincible and his body is still mortal. he did die after the fight with the belrog and in his words " he was sent back", this is also why he is a little confused when he is first called gandalf upon his return... you know like moving from one house to a bigger one, you still have everything (one hopes) you just got to find it again. my biggest complaint was the lack of sam using the ring in the movies. in the book he uses the ring directly under sauron's nose, and sauron is none the wiser.