Rohan - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

skytree · 05-22-2010, 11:09 PM

I know Mead Halls or at least I think were completely unique to Scandinavian cultures in Europe, and of course wearing their hair long and braided with beards is similar to the Viking culture. Of course both the Celts and Vikings commonly buried warriors of renown in elaborate mounds, many that are still being discovered today. Unlike the Angles or Saxons, the Celts and Vikings tended toward tribalism and a nomadic life, avoiding large population concentrations. Those are the things that stood out to me.

Aiwendil · 05-23-2010, 09:17 AM

Good points. The Anglo-Saxons did have mead halls much like the Scandinavians, though - indeed, the O.E. word for such a hall was 'meduseld'.

Rumil · 05-28-2010, 12:22 PM

Hi all,

The Prof's intentions on this are quite revealing. First he gave the Eothraim names from the Dark Age Goths, that were famous horsemen. When they settle in Rohan the names change to Anglo-Saxon.

JRRT considered the Norman conquest a tragedy for English culture (not surprisingly being a Prof of Anglo-Saxon). Therefore in some ways the Rohirrim are a 'fantasy' version of the Anglo Saxons that retained their horsemanship and their independence.

The Goths and English, and later Scandinavians had a number of cultural links and similarities. Certainly the areas of Northern Holland, Germany and Denmark, home of the progenitors of the English and later partly Viking were linked by culture such as the tale of Beowulf, of which JRRT produced a famous translation.

garm · 05-31-2010, 02:59 AM

I don't think Tolkien had a real-world template in mind when he came up with the Rohirrim. Or at least, not any one race or nation. In a letter he mentions 'Homeric horsemen', for example.

As for the Anglo-Saxon connection: it's true that he used elements of the language to relate the Rohirrim to the rest of Middle earth; A-S is to Rohirric as modern English is to the Westron. But that's about all. Let me quote from Lee and Solpova's excellent book, 'The Keys of Middle earth':

'(Tolkien) states that he was not trying to 're-create' anything but instead was at pains to note that: "No one would learn anything valid about the 'Anglo-Saxons' from any of my lore, not even that concerning the Rohirrim; I never intended that they should" (Tolkien: A30/1,f.121)'
(op.cit. pp.201-2)

The note in brackets refers to a shelf-mark at the Bodleian Library. Lee and Solopova are at pains to point out that others disagree with Tolkien; esp. Tom Shippey, who reckons the Rohirrim resemble Anglo-Saxons in every way, except their love of horses. But I agree with Tolkien - the so-called 'Anglo-Saxon' period covers many peoples and sub-cultures over time; from the migration days of the fifth and sixth centuries to the conversion to Christianity; from the time of Alfred up to the Conquest.

I think Tolkien was speaking professionally - he was not an A-S historian, and in these matters would defer to others who were; such as Sir Frank Stenton. I guess Tolkien was merely being precise.

BTW, Rumil - Tolkien did make a translation of Beowulf, but it hasn't been published - yet! I think you meant Tolkien wrote a famous lecture on Beowulf.

Aiwendil · 05-31-2010, 10:02 AM

Fair points, garm, but I would suggest that Rohan can resemble Anglo-Saxon England even if it was not based on Anglo-Saxon England. Certainly the maxim 'the Rohirrim are the Anglo-Saxons with horses' is much too simplistic. But given the importance Tolkien placed on language, it seems to me that it would have been almost impossible for him to have treated the Rohirric speech as Old English without also imparting to them something of the English culture, the outlook, the 'mood', for lack of a better word.

One finds, first of all, a lot of linguistic or partially linguistic similarities that go beyond what is necessary for the 'translator conceit'. For example, there is their consistent use of the pattern 'Theoden king' instead of 'king Theoden', which matches the Anglo-Saxon phrasing (e.g. 'Aelfraed cyning'). There is the name 'the Mark', which certainly seems to have been inspired by Mercia. There is their poetry, which is consistently rendered in alliterative verse (and English-style alliterative verse at that, quite different from Tolkien's Norse-style alliterative verse found in the Lays of Sigurd and Gudrun).

As for extra-linguistic similarities, there is the fact that both the Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxons first migrated to their respective countries in response to a call for aid from the older inhabitants of the land: Eorl coming at the summons of Cirion and, according to legend, Hengest and Horsa at the summons of Vortigern. And to reinforce this parallel, we have the reference to Helm's Deep having been built 'with the hands of giants', suggesting that the later Rohirrim stood in much the same relation to the Numenorean relics in their land as the Anglo-Saxons did to the Romano-British in theirs.

And there are other small but concrete similarities. For example, the laying aside of weapons before Aragorn and company enter Meduseld closely matches that before Beowulf enters Heorot. I don't suggest that any of this means that the Rohirrim 'are' the English in some sense; nor, of course, does it mean that there are no differences between them. But I think these similarities are sufficient reason to say that Rohan resembles Anglo-Saxon England.

Lastande Took · 05-31-2010, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Certainly the maxim 'the Rohirrim are the Anglo-Saxons with horses' is much too simplistic.

I don't suggest that any of this means that the Rohirrim 'are' the English in some sense; nor, of course, does it mean that there are no differences between them. But I think these similarities are sufficient reason to say that Rohan resembles Anglo-Saxon England.

Wow. You know your stuff, and I am in agreement with you.

mysteryman3 · 07-23-2012, 10:03 PM

I have to say, I found more than I expected when I looked on this forum. I have been writing novels (have not approached a publisher so far) since I was in year 9, which was 5 years ago. The afternoon that I finished my final year 12 exam, I decided to have a LotR marathon, and watched the movies over the next 2 days. After watching them, I had an irrepressable urge to write a sequel to 'The Return Of The King'. This was partly because I was sad that the fellowship had ended and I wanted to bring the characters back together again. After weeks of doing research on the Tolkien universe (up until then a was not a huge fan of LotR and therefore not very knowledgeable), I lost interest in the excercise. On the 11th of July 2012, I watched 'The Fellowship' with my family. While watching it, a few ideas began to form in my mind. The next night we watched 'The Two Towers', and the night after that we finished 'The Return Of The King'. By this time I had some pretty good ideas and began writing. Due to the fact that I am starting a carpentry course tomorrow, I have not been writing non-stop, but I have reached page 9 and the concepts for the story are already so big that I do not believe they will all fit in a single novel. I came on here looking for advice on whether I would breach copyright by writing my story. I can see that I need to contact Christopher at the very least before getting published. I have also been thinking that it might be good to post some of the story online and see what genuine hardcore fans of Tolkien (not just LotR) think of it.

Would such a thing be against copyright? If not, I will post some of it where suggested and take onboard the feedback.

mysteryman3 · 07-23-2012, 10:11 PM

In my previous post, I did not give any clues as to the contents of my story, or the nature of the concepts in it. As soon as I recieve a reply, I will be happy to discuss what I have written so far. Just to give an indication of how you may like it, my family all think it is excellent (although they would probably have said that anyway if it was terrible), but I have tried to stay true to the grammar and style of Tolkien, as well as the lore of Middle Earth. I have also not used any finished ideas, leaving them finished. I am using ideas that Tolkien left 'open' and only partially explored.

05-28-2010, 12:22 PM	#3
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Hi all, The Prof's intentions on this are quite revealing. First he gave the Eothraim names from the Dark Age Goths, that were famous horsemen. When they settle in Rohan the names change to Anglo-Saxon. JRRT considered the Norman conquest a tragedy for English culture (not surprisingly being a Prof of Anglo-Saxon). Therefore in some ways the Rohirrim are a 'fantasy' version of the Anglo Saxons that retained their horsemanship and their independence. The Goths and English, and later Scandinavians had a number of cultural links and similarities. Certainly the areas of Northern Holland, Germany and Denmark, home of the progenitors of the English and later partly Viking were linked by culture such as the tale of Beowulf, of which JRRT produced a famous translation. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

05-31-2010, 10:02 AM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Fair points, garm, but I would suggest that Rohan can resemble Anglo-Saxon England even if it was not based on Anglo-Saxon England. Certainly the maxim 'the Rohirrim are the Anglo-Saxons with horses' is much too simplistic. But given the importance Tolkien placed on language, it seems to me that it would have been almost impossible for him to have treated the Rohirric speech as Old English without also imparting to them something of the English culture, the outlook, the 'mood', for lack of a better word. One finds, first of all, a lot of linguistic or partially linguistic similarities that go beyond what is necessary for the 'translator conceit'. For example, there is their consistent use of the pattern 'Theoden king' instead of 'king Theoden', which matches the Anglo-Saxon phrasing (e.g. 'Aelfraed cyning'). There is the name 'the Mark', which certainly seems to have been inspired by Mercia. There is their poetry, which is consistently rendered in alliterative verse (and English-style alliterative verse at that, quite different from Tolkien's Norse-style alliterative verse found in the Lays of Sigurd and Gudrun). As for extra-linguistic similarities, there is the fact that both the Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxons first migrated to their respective countries in response to a call for aid from the older inhabitants of the land: Eorl coming at the summons of Cirion and, according to legend, Hengest and Horsa at the summons of Vortigern. And to reinforce this parallel, we have the reference to Helm's Deep having been built 'with the hands of giants', suggesting that the later Rohirrim stood in much the same relation to the Numenorean relics in their land as the Anglo-Saxons did to the Romano-British in theirs. And there are other small but concrete similarities. For example, the laying aside of weapons before Aragorn and company enter Meduseld closely matches that before Beowulf enters Heorot. I don't suggest that any of this means that the Rohirrim 'are' the English in some sense; nor, of course, does it mean that there are no differences between them. But I think these similarities are sufficient reason to say that Rohan resembles Anglo-Saxon England. Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-31-2010 at 03:27 PM.

05-22-2010, 11:09 PM	#1
skytree Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 51	I know Mead Halls or at least I think were completely unique to Scandinavian cultures in Europe, and of course wearing their hair long and braided with beards is similar to the Viking culture. Of course both the Celts and Vikings commonly buried warriors of renown in elaborate mounds, many that are still being discovered today. Unlike the Angles or Saxons, the Celts and Vikings tended toward tribalism and a nomadic life, avoiding large population concentrations. Those are the things that stood out to me.

05-23-2010, 09:17 AM	#2
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Good points. The Anglo-Saxons did have mead halls much like the Scandinavians, though - indeed, the O.E. word for such a hall was 'meduseld'.

05-31-2010, 02:59 AM	#4
garm Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 22	I don't think Tolkien had a real-world template in mind when he came up with the Rohirrim. Or at least, not any one race or nation. In a letter he mentions 'Homeric horsemen', for example. As for the Anglo-Saxon connection: it's true that he used elements of the language to relate the Rohirrim to the rest of Middle earth; A-S is to Rohirric as modern English is to the Westron. But that's about all. Let me quote from Lee and Solpova's excellent book, 'The Keys of Middle earth': '(Tolkien) states that he was not trying to 're-create' anything but instead was at pains to note that: "No one would learn anything valid about the 'Anglo-Saxons' from any of my lore, not even that concerning the Rohirrim; I never intended that they should" (Tolkien: A30/1,f.121)' (op.cit. pp.201-2) The note in brackets refers to a shelf-mark at the Bodleian Library. Lee and Solopova are at pains to point out that others disagree with Tolkien; esp. Tom Shippey, who reckons the Rohirrim resemble Anglo-Saxons in every way, except their love of horses. But I agree with Tolkien - the so-called 'Anglo-Saxon' period covers many peoples and sub-cultures over time; from the migration days of the fifth and sixth centuries to the conversion to Christianity; from the time of Alfred up to the Conquest. I think Tolkien was speaking professionally - he was not an A-S historian, and in these matters would defer to others who were; such as Sir Frank Stenton. I guess Tolkien was merely being precise. BTW, Rumil - Tolkien did make a translation of Beowulf, but it hasn't been published - yet! I think you meant Tolkien wrote a famous lecture on Beowulf.

07-23-2012, 10:03 PM	#7
mysteryman3 Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 5	I have to say, I found more than I expected when I looked on this forum. I have been writing novels (have not approached a publisher so far) since I was in year 9, which was 5 years ago. The afternoon that I finished my final year 12 exam, I decided to have a LotR marathon, and watched the movies over the next 2 days. After watching them, I had an irrepressable urge to write a sequel to 'The Return Of The King'. This was partly because I was sad that the fellowship had ended and I wanted to bring the characters back together again. After weeks of doing research on the Tolkien universe (up until then a was not a huge fan of LotR and therefore not very knowledgeable), I lost interest in the excercise. On the 11th of July 2012, I watched 'The Fellowship' with my family. While watching it, a few ideas began to form in my mind. The next night we watched 'The Two Towers', and the night after that we finished 'The Return Of The King'. By this time I had some pretty good ideas and began writing. Due to the fact that I am starting a carpentry course tomorrow, I have not been writing non-stop, but I have reached page 9 and the concepts for the story are already so big that I do not believe they will all fit in a single novel. I came on here looking for advice on whether I would breach copyright by writing my story. I can see that I need to contact Christopher at the very least before getting published. I have also been thinking that it might be good to post some of the story online and see what genuine hardcore fans of Tolkien (not just LotR) think of it. Would such a thing be against copyright? If not, I will post some of it where suggested and take onboard the feedback.

07-23-2012, 10:11 PM	#8
mysteryman3 Newly Deceased Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 5	In my previous post, I did not give any clues as to the contents of my story, or the nature of the concepts in it. As soon as I recieve a reply, I will be happy to discuss what I have written so far. Just to give an indication of how you may like it, my family all think it is excellent (although they would probably have said that anyway if it was terrible), but I have tried to stay true to the grammar and style of Tolkien, as well as the lore of Middle Earth. I have also not used any finished ideas, leaving them finished. I am using ideas that Tolkien left 'open' and only partially explored.