ecthelion vs glorfindel

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Re-embodiment was not uncommon among Elves. Ecthelion almost certainly enjoyed this service of the Valar as well, although he may have had to wait until the ban on the Noldor's return to Aman was lifted.

Why did Ecthelion have to wait? Wasn't he as valiant and selfless that day as Glorfindel? If I remember correctly, he slew three Balrogs in addition to Gothmog. So he should also be highly qualified for immediate resurrection, like Glorfindel.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Why did Ecthelion have to wait? Wasn't he as valiant and selfless that day as Glorfindel? If I remember correctly, he slew three Balrogs in addition to Gothmog. So he should also be highly qualified for immediate resurrection, like Glorfindel.

I said he may have had to wait, because Tolkien does not mention Ecthelion's receiving the same treatment.

[Galin]

I tend to doubt the number of slain Balrogs -- according to The Book of Lost Tales version of The Fall of Gondolin -- was going to hold for the later Quenta Silmarillion.


Unfortunately Tolkien abandoned the 1951 updated (long prose) version of this tale... although at that point Balrogs still existed in great numbers at least (externally speaking). Later Tolkien imagined that, at most, seven ever existed; though in any case he did not revise every relevant passage that implied large numbers of Balrogs...

... just to keep us guessing

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Galin

I tend to doubt the number of slain Balrogs -- according to The Book of Lost Tales version of The Fall of Gondolin -- was going to hold for the later Quenta Silmarillion.


Unfortunately Tolkien abandoned the 1951 updated (long prose) version of this tale... although at that point Balrogs still existed in great numbers at least (externally speaking). Later Tolkien imagined that, at most, seven ever existed; though in any case he did not revise every relevant passage that implied large numbers of Balrogs...

... just to keep us guessing

Yes, and I think it is best not to ignore the suggestion of only three Balrogs existing. That Tolkien says "three or at most seven" implies that he considered only three to be truly necessary (likely Gothmog, Glorfindel's Bane, and Durin's Bane), and seven to be the upper limit. I suspect Tolkien's ambivalence has to do with the question of how much revision would be necessary to implement the change.

[mark12_30]

I wonder: would he have come up with some sort of "Lesser Balrog" order, and left Seven Balrog Captains in command over numerous, lesser Ensign Balrogs; perhaps renaming the Ensign Balrogs to something less impressive.

Perhaps it reminds me of the spiders. There is Ungoliant; and Shelob; and there are Lesser Spiders, that make the southern borders of Dorthonion a nasty place, and Mirkwood too, later.

Of course this is all rambling and unsupported whimsy on my part.

[Galin]

I've even read the suggestion (not here) that maybe Tolkien, late in life, 'intended' to have Glorfindel fight a notable demon... but something that is not a Balrog specifically. Like, perhaps a notable Maia in orc form.

The suggestion was based on the late Glorfindel texts, because Tolkien used 'demon' throughout instead of Balrog, and in at least one instance, for some reason changed the word Balrog to demon. I must admit I have no great answer as to why Tolkien would revise the word Balrog to demon -- but also no great answer as to why, if indeed he meant to revise the encounter in this way, he wasn't more explicit about it (though granted these are still, to him, his private papers).


Anyway, I don't buy it myself but I thought it was interesting.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I wonder: would he have come up with some sort of "Lesser Balrog" order, and left Seven Balrog Captains in command over numerous, lesser Ensign Balrogs; perhaps renaming the Ensign Balrogs to something less impressive.

Perhaps it reminds me of the spiders. There is Ungoliant; and Shelob; and there are Lesser Spiders, that make the southern borders of Dorthonion a nasty place, and Mirkwood too, later.

Of course this is all rambling and unsupported whimsy on my part.

Well, it actually reminds of the children of the Valar becoming Maiar. So maybe you could get even lower-level Ainu.