Should Saruman have accompanied Mauhur and his "lads" ?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I'd also add that just being a Maia and having lived a long time doesn't make one a good commander.

That's what I was thinking. Saruman may have had his own kind of brilliance, but applying it to military matters was apparently not among them. He was good when it came to the development of military devices and training, but he didn't, apparently, have a lot of practical experience with warfare. As far as we know, he never went out and fought in a large battle during his time in ME. We know that Gandalf did (the Battle of the Five Armies, at the very least). The only fight I can think of in which Saruman may have been involved directly is the attack on Dol Guldur, and even then, I don't think it would have been quite the same (the fact that Saruman was reluctant to attack Sauron in the first place makes me wonder how actively involved he really was). Particularly after Gandalf managed to escape Orthanc with knowledge that Saruman was building up forces of his own, he seemed very concerned about exposing his hand too soon. Without enough practical experience as a military commander, he would make mistakes, I think. And it appears that he did.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

That's what I was thinking. Saruman may have had his own kind of brilliance, but applying it to military matters was apparently not among them. He was good when it came to the development of military devices and training, but he didn't, apparently, have a lot of practical experience with warfare. As far as we know, he never went out and fought in a large battle during his time in ME. We know that Gandalf did (the Battle of the Five Armies, at the very least). The only fight I can think of in which Saruman may have been involved directly is the attack on Dol Guldur, and even then, I don't think it would have been quite the same (the fact that Saruman was reluctant to attack Sauron in the first place makes me wonder how actively involved he really was). Particularly after Gandalf managed to escape Orthanc with knowledge that Saruman was building up forces of his own, he seemed very concerned about exposing his hand too soon. Without enough practical experience as a military commander, he would make mistakes, I think. And it appears that he did.

Occasionally I wonder if this was a fault of Tolkien or a fault of Saruman. Ultimately, a character can't be smarter or wiser than the author who penned him, and I have seen plenty of other authors who have written some strange ways of thinking for supposedly intelligent characters.

In the end, I'm inclined to believe that Saruman's lack of sound strategic thinking is a fault of Saruman. Tolkien went out of his way to show someone who was too cunning for his own good.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

On the other hand, if Saruman's aim was to get the Ring no matter what, then the force he sent was too small; it couldn't defend itself from roving bands of Rohirrim cavalry.

Saruman didn't think the band under Uglúk would have to deal with the Rohirrim, and he should have been right. It was only Éomer's own initiative and willingness to disobey Wormtongue that caused any action to be taken against them.

Saruman certainly did not consider all possibilities, but then, neither did Sauron. I think that was one thing Tolkien was trying to indicate with his main evil characters; their curious single-mindedness and inattention to detail when it mattered.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Saruman certainly did not consider all possibilities, but then, neither did Sauron. I think that was one thing Tolkien was trying to indicate with his main evil characters; their curious single-mindedness and inattention to detail when it mattered.

I might be inclined to say that it was a lack of attention to all details, and instead hyperfocusing on ones that turned out to be less important than others they ignored or dismissed. In this, they remind me of some attention deficit friends I have. They can have phenomenal attention to something that catches their interest and thus appears very important to them, but while their attention is focused on that manner, they are blind to everything else. In the case of both Sauron and Saruman, their attention was focused on one thing: the Ring, and the way they had each determined it would best be obtained. Sauron believed that anyone of "importance" who came near it would seize it and use it for military conquest. Saruman knew that Gandalf wanted to destroy it, but his lust for it drove him into haste, and thus into making serious mistakes. Perhaps if his desire for the Ring had not been part of the equation, Saruman might have done better as a military commander. With the Ring as a driving motive, he was almost doomed to make fatal mistakes, I think.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Saruman didn't think the band under Uglúk would have to deal with the Rohirrim, and he should have been right. It was only Éomer's own initiative and willingness to disobey Wormtongue that caused any action to be taken against them.

Saruman certainly did not consider all possibilities, but then, neither did Sauron. I think that was one thing Tolkien was trying to indicate with his main evil characters; their curious single-mindedness and inattention to detail when it mattered.

This is what I would say. In fact, Saruman sent about 100 Orcs as I recall. He was presumably not planning on intervention from the Rohirrim, because 1) Wormtongue supposedly had things under control, and the Rohirrim were tied down on the other side of Rohan, and 2) there was no way to predict the disobedience of Eomer.

The number sent was about right to ensure success under normal circumstances, while maintaining mobility. To have overcome Eomer's force would have taken considerably more.

Other than that, Saruman certainly made some mistakes. Through Ugluk's intervention, he drove Frodo east over the river, removing any chance of ever getting the Ring...