WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I disagree with Brinn about the unicorn not revealing (obviously). They are such minor points, risks that have to be taken if we want to have two known innocents... I can't think what an innocent would have to gain by saying it but for a wolf it makes much more sense.

Wait, I'm confused. So you don't think the unicorn should reveal?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

And yet you waited until the last possible minute. I think you were hoping to be able to yet again keep out of the lynch of an innocent.

Of course I waited. The voting was close and if it came to a tie, I can only get you lynched if I voted last. Obviously I didn't know Legate was a wolf at the time and you looked more suspicious, so I did want you lynched over him.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

And why would Wolf-me have sacrificed Legate to save myself with all the suspicion against me yesterDay?

Yeah, and probably the best way to brush off that suspicion is to go wolf-on-wolf since that's probably less expected at this late stage of the game. By voting Legate at a critical point, you can make yourself look good then pin the suspicion on someone who didn't vote him, which is exactly what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Lottie

BTW, I could be wrong about Brinn. Hopefully I'm not. If I'm not, it would be very bad to lynch her now.

Don't worry, you're not wrong. And I'm quite thankful to be innocent because I've been a lone wolf before and it sucks. Honestly with all other stresses going on in my life, if I were put in that position I would've thrown up my hands and given up ages ago.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Under the circumstances, it would have been idiotic for a Nerwolf to have risked killing Legate– and like I said, helping to lynch wolves has been attracting suspicion this game!

It's not an idiotic thing for a wolf to do if they think they can convince the village that it is idiotic (if that makes any sense). And as for the latter bit, not necessarily. Wolves may sometimes vote off their packmate, or they might vote to save them, or they might stay neutral. Looking at the votes should be done on an individual basis, taking into account the circumstances of the lynch, the reason for the vote, timing, and the voter's position in the game at the time (as in whether they were heavily suspected at the time or not).

[Nerwen]

Yeah, and probably the best way to brush off that suspicion is to go wolf-on-wolf since that's probably less expected at this late stage of the game. By voting Legate at a critical point, you can make yourself look good then pin the suspicion on someone who didn't vote him, which is exactly what you're doing.

Oh... I see... so Shasta's vote is suspicious too, I suppose? Whereas yours makes you pure as the driven snow?

Look, Brinniel, the only rationale for your actions the past few Days– the one with which Lottie has thoughtfully supplied you– is that you are on a noble crusade against me, so sure I'm a wolf that nothing else matters except killing me.

Problem one:

YOU DO NOT KNOW MY ROLE. What do you claim to be, the secret backup Seer? Greenie's pm-buddy to whom she communicated her last Dream? What?

And don't say it's because your "case" against me was so persuasive that you could logically be 99% certain I was a wolf. I say again: what case? I answered your points against me, and Agan's, and you simply waved your hand and said, "No... don't buy it– anyway, let's just lynch her for peace of mind".

Problem two:

You are not Sally. Or Izzy. Or any of the players who tend to go by gut-feeling and are sometimes led astray by it. I've had those two– ordos both– pursue innocent-me for Days because they "just knew" I was a wolf. You, I just don't see being that convinced by your own paper-thin case.

EDIT: spelling.

[Nerwen]

What Brin and Lommy said, and what Legate said about them

#790. Brinniel speculates on what happened in the Night.


#792.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Btw Lottie (and perhaps Shasta too), can you please explain to me how lynching an innocent Morsul is soo helpful to us? I'm really curious about this one.

I already stated this. Morsul was attracting attention and trying to get himself lynched. A lone wolf would not do that because he'd lose the game not just for himself, but his entire team. Giving up would be a selfish and lame move, and I didn't think Morsul would do that.

Comments: I didn't address this at the time, but obviously what Morsul did might have been a lupine double-bluff, or a Morwolf might have given up because he was heavily suspected and his more skilled comrades already dead. While Brinn's case for his innocence was good, it was hardly so conclusive that she could be sure he wasn't "a potential wolf". (See #782.)


#794. Brinniel explains why she made a post that said what I already had.


#817.

Originally Posted by Legate

For that matter, if the Cursing did happen toNight, I would be most worried about Lommy then, as she was generally considered innocent, I believe, so I guess she would be a likely target for the Wolf.

#819. Brinn insists I'm still suspicious ("just because", basically): "You may see it that way, but I don't. Your actions on Day 3 and especially Day 4 look clearly suspicious to me." Explains again how she "knew" Morsul's innocence– says she merely deduced it. Dislikes the whole idea of lynching the Unicorn. Tells Skip she didn't vote because it was pointless:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Yeah, which was clearly unlikely. winty seemed pretty much gone by then. Nerwen used her retraction to save herself, and would obviously never vote for herself anyway. Lottie was the only one to convince, and I tried to persuade her to vote Nerwen and failed. By then, it was too late to persuade her to change it, and I'm quite certain she wouldn't have used her only retraction anyway when she seemed quite happy with her vote on Morsul. Even though my vote would've made no difference, I probably should've made one anyway simply for vote record reasons, but I was so irritated at the time, I couldn't be bothered with it.

Tells Skip my retracting to save myself is "not necessarily" a sign of guilt. Thinks we should "keep the possibility of a cursed turning in the back of our minds , but not yet attempt to go about looking for one just yet", but rather concentrate on the fourth wolf. Asks Wilwa:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Btw, if we were to lynch the cursed, would the narration indicate whether that cursed had indeed been turned, or would we be left guessing?

Comments: Her answer to Skip is no answer at all, really. The fact remains that there was at least a chance to lynch me (the "clearly suspicious") and save Morsul, of whose innocence she was "pretty certain". She chose to hold her vote (she was there, all right, and commenting). Why? It looks to me like a wolf who doesn't really care about the results of the lynch, but prefers to avoid killing an innocent (i.e. me), when she could just sit back and let another one die by inaction. Even her quasi-defence of me to Skip there I don't really like– I mean, "not necessarily"? when what I'd done was normal practice. Okay, I'm getting paranoid now, seeing everything through wolf-coloured glasses, whatever. But look– doesn't it seem like she's trying to very subtly mislead the newbie about just how invalid his suspicion was?


#836. Lommy is disturbed by me because I'm not upset enough at the suspcion against me; thinks my use of underlining and italics "forced". Admits that she made mistakes about the rules.


#840. Agan and I are Lommy's top suspects.


#846In response to me Lommy admits that if I'd been acting indignant she's have called that wolfish too. Accepts clarification of a point I made.


#848. Lommy lists players in order of suspicion: Nerwen, Aganzir, Mira, Winty, Legate, Shasta, Brinn, Skip. Would prefer to vote Agan or me, but flip-flops: "both of their few last posts look unwolvish". Might also vote Mira or winty.

Comments: Lommy flip-flopping? Or Lomwolf wanting to keep her options open?


#851. Legwolf talks of whom he might vote (unsure of me or Agan, is thinking about Shasta and Mira.) No mention of Lommy or Brinn.


#856. Brinniel still suspects me, still on a "just because" basis, but doesn't feel "quite as forceful" about it– her argument has now changed to the familiar "lynch her for peace of mind" one: "And while I'd feel bad if she really were innocent, if we lynched Nerwen, at least I wouldn't have to keep worrying about her".

Comments: This looks to me like she knows perfectly well I'm innocent.


#857. Lommy shares my fears about the situation, will check her own and Agan's wolf-analyses.


#861. Banter from Brinniel.


#862. Tells Skip my losing my temper could be read either way– may not be guilty, but she's not about to conclude I'm a frustrated innocent either.

Comments: Fair enough


#864. Lommy gives everyone "wolf" points, based on interactions with known wolves. Agan has the most, followed by Legate and me. Mira, Skip and Brinn are in the middle, with winty and Shasta last.

Comments: None. I don't understand the criteria she's using.


#866.

Originally Posted by Lommy

If the options were Nerwen and Agan, I would have hard time deciding.

But if the option for a Nerwen-lynch is lynching Shasta or Skip, or even Mira, I will really have to vote Nerwen.

Nerwen, if you're innocent, I vote you and you get lynched, you may comfort yourself with the thought that I will go after Agan next (provided that I survive the Night).

PS. I think that Nerwen's frustration is genuine, but it doesn't tell us anything about her role (sadly).

Comments: Start of the "lynch Nerwen, then Agan (or vice versa)" meme.


#869. Lommy explains why she mentioned Shasta, Skip and Mira in her last post– they were the other people most suspected.


#870. Comments on Skip's retraction.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Wow that was pretty drastic... now I really wonder... (not about Skip though!)

Then about what?

#872.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Nerwen 2 votes, Aganzir 1? Whichever I vote, I will feel like an idiot if she turns out innocent...

Currently leaning on Aganzir though, not because she seems any more guilty but because she has less votes atm so it'd be more balanced (and more interesting toMorrow in case the game continues).

On the other hand, we can take for granted that Nerwen is going to vote Agan so it's kind of 2-2.

Hmm...

Comments: Hmm indeed... Sounds a bit like she expects the victim to turn out innocent– cf Brinn at #856.


#874.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Lottie, why are you so sure the cursed was turned last Night?

++Aganzir

I'm sorry darling, but you know I hate you to fool me as a wolf. Are you a wolf, then? Not sure, but your horrible track record when it comes to lynching wolves isn't exactly convincing. And I do get creepy vibes from you.

I'm especially sorry if Nerwen is the last wolf. But if it comforts you, if you're lynched and innocent, you can take my word that I won't fail to lynch Nerwen on the third time.

That being said, I leave this village in your hands, friends. I don't really have a preference over which one we lynch, Agan or Nerwen, I'll be probably after the other one toMorrow (if there is a toMorrow which I can take part to). If someone else dies, though, I'll be quite unhappy.

I trust you to make the right choice (whatever it is)... Good night!

Comments: Quite an evil-looking post– could be a wolf trying to set up the next lynch. Also, possibly trying to steer people away from talking about the Cursed, though it was a fair question to ask Lottie.


#877. Legwolf discusses his voting options.

Originally Posted by Legate

...Lommy now has made me slightly concerned given the emerging anti-Aganzir movement, however the concern is largely stemming from the fear of her being a likely target for a Wolf and thus, likely Cursed, but as there's no evidence of that, none can tell.

(...)

I am trying to resist now and focus on others, as I still believe I have better grounds for suspecting other people. Brinn is in a way a case similar to Nerwen's, of all the people there I find her maybe the least suspicious, though.

#881Legate's vote-post on Mira.


#882.
Brinniel insists she suspected me on perfectly valid grounds. Agan a dangerous wolf, but still probably wouldn't go after an innocent Nerwen at this stage. We should look at under the radar wolves, because that's the safest place for them to be. "Unless you're being suspected...then it's all about defend, defend, defend"

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Lottie, while we can consider the possibility of the cursed being turned, we shouldn't assume it. I recommend you don't vote someone because you think they are cursed...instead try to find the fourth wolf. If we lynch them, then we will find out whether we even have a cursed.

Comments: Trying to broaden her options, while still keeping me in there? Interesting that she repeats her argument against looking for the Cursed. I mean, it's a good point in itself, but it's starting to seem really important to her.


#883.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Frustrated can also be furry. There have been just as many frustrated wolves in the past as frustrated innocents. So don't think your frustration is going to make you look anymore innocent.

Comments: A bit twisty, I think– implies that my intention there is to say that my frustration proves my innocence, rather than just defend my reaction.


#887.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I'd really like to lynch Nerwen, but someone else has to vote her too in order for that to happen...

Almost 10 minutes until deadline. Where is everyone?

#891. Response to Lottie's "Legalysis", where she concludes Legwolf is "really suspicious".

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Are you voting Legate then? Though that'd be a throwaway...

I really hope you don't vote based on possible packs. Because we don't even know if there is one.

Comments:Third time. Yep, looks like it is important to her.


#894.

Originally Posted by Brinn

++Nerwen

Bah, this is annoying. I really hope Agan is the wolf then..

If I'm dead by toMorrow, please LYNCH NERWEN. Well, unless Agan turns out to be a wolf...

Comments: Picks up the "lynch one, then the other" meme.


#895.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Oh crap, Mira's going? I'd rather see Agan go, though not enough to retract...

Looks like an easy lynch. Mira's been busy in RL. I do NOT like how winty keeps coming out of nowhere to vote.

Comments:Mira had been talked about as a possible lynch for some time. Brinniel seemed oblivious to this– yet once Mira was doomed, she's ready to defend her. And why not retract, since she apparently finds Agan quite suspicious and Mira not at all suspicious? Much like a repeat of the previous Day, isn't it?


General comments; What I said before I started– Lommy looks somewhat suspicious, Brinn highly so. One thing I hadn't noticed before was that Legate twice suggested Lommy as the Cursed, which speaks rather in her favour.

Other than that there was no interaction between Legate and the other two, though this changes the next Day.

I don't know if I'll have time to look at that now, however.

EDIT:Formatting; spelling; clarification.
EDIT2: Ditto.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

No comment at this time. But I don't think you're right. I won't say anything more right now.

Originally Posted by Lottie

I could be wrong about Brinn. Hopefully I'm not. If I'm not, it would be very bad to lynch her now.

Lottie, you seem to be hinting here that you know something the rest of us don't about Brinniel, and that it proves, or at least suggests, her innocence.

EDIT:X'd with Lommy; fixed quotes.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Lottie, you seem to be hinting here that you know something the rest of us don't about Brinniel, and that it proves, or at least suggests, her innocence.

What I thought when reading those posts was that Lottie had a reason to believe Brinn was the unicorn... Or wanted to make somebody else believe so.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lommy

And before you ask - yes, I honestly forgot there's a unicorn in the game (although I admit I remembered it by the time I pretended to have forgotten it) and I was honestly wrong about who the unicorn can resurrect and in what case. I should read the role PM more closely.

You forgot your own role?

EDIT:X'd with two Agans.

[Thinlómien]

I agree with whoever said that toDay the unicorn should come out - so, here I am, I give up. I would have wanted to die in the Night, but the wolf seemingly had no interest in killing me even when everybody thought me innocent. *sigh* And anyway, whoever it was who brought up the possibility of a false unicorn claim toMorrow had a point.

And before you ask - yes, I honestly forgot there's a unicorn in the game (although I admit I remembered it by the time I pretended to have forgotten it) and I was honestly wrong about who the unicorn can resurrect and in what case. I should read the role PM more closely.

I will be of use now and post some thoughts. I have read what people have said toDay and think there can be found pretty condemning material from the two previous Days' posting. I will look at it next and then come back with an opinion.

Last thing - thanks for lynching Legate, mates. I was pretty sure there would be some last-minute bandwagon and probably a stupid one. I logged in during the Night-time and saw "Legate was lynched" I was like "not AGAIN! again some stupid last minute bandwagon" and then I saw "he was the cursed wolf" and I was like "yay I think I'll snuggle all last-minute voters and forgive them for lynching Morsul and Mira!"

Okay, one more last thing. I think Winty was possibly killed because his death would leave no trails, the last wolf might've been between frying pan and fire with her (I say her because I doubt it's Shasta) kill choice last Night. Now, off to reread (although if I'm lazy I might do something else first, like have a nap, but I'll reread and post within 3 hours at the most and probably much sooner...)


edit: xed with Nerwen

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

But the only other real option at the time was herself.

I'm not talking about that but the fact that she voiced some suspicion against Legate before, commenting on how he found Nerwen's kill speculation weird. I just checked it and it wasn't as strong as I had remembered, though... But in any case it must have been in the wolves' interests that they both survive as they might have won already today.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Wait, I'm confused. So you don't think the unicorn should reveal?

Whoops. No, I thought she should, I had been saying that for two days already. But I had just woken up after six hours of sleep, skimmed through the thread & figured I'd have time to post before leaving for uni, and somehow got the impression you said the unicorn shouldn't come out at all. Morning Agan = not the sharpest Agan.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Yeah, and probably the best way to brush off that suspicion is to go wolf-on-wolf since that's probably less expected at this late stage of the game.

It depends totally on the wolf strategy. If they both had lived today, it might have been relatively easy for them to lynch an innocent, whereas the longer the game continues, the more difficult it becomes for the last wolf to hide - even if she had regained some trust from the village by going heavily wolf-on-wolf.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And before you ask - yes, I honestly forgot there's a unicorn in the game (although I admit I remembered it by the time I pretended to have forgotten it) and I was honestly wrong about who the unicorn can resurrect and in what case. I should read the role PM more closely.

Ha and I was like, Lommy is most likely not the unicorn, she wouldn't play stupid just to mislead the wolves!

Originally Posted by Lommy

Okay, one more last thing. I think Winty was possibly killed because his death would leave no trails

Yup I agree. And of course his vote for Legate made him look quite innocent.

I have plenty of time before my next class so I could go and have a look at Legate too.