WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, looks as if I backed the wrong horse there. Glirdan could technically still be a wolf, but I doubt it. It's not so much his words toward the end of yesterDay that make him look better (I still say his attack looked evil), but this from Sallywolf:




That looks like real panic, trying to convince Nienna to vote Glirdan instead of her. If Nienna had done so and Glirdan was a wolf, the pack would be in the same situation they are now.

That said, I fully intend to vote Mira toDay, barring some major developments.

x/d with Morsul

Let's try putting ourselves in Salwolf's shoes, working under the assumption that Glirdy is her packmate. She was about to die. She was currently two votes ahead of her packmate. If Nienna switched votes, Glirdy would die and she would look better come Morning because she'd helped kill a wolf. If Nienna didn't, her packmate would look better come Morning becaues a wolf had tried to kill him.

If he were an innocent, of course, she'd probably do the same, but my point is, don't write him off just because of what Sally said at endDay.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Let's try putting ourselves in Salwolf's shoes, working under the assumption that Glirdy is her packmate. She was about to die. She was currently two votes ahead of her packmate. If Nienna switched votes, Glirdy would die and she would look better come Morning because she'd helped kill a wolf. If Nienna didn't, her packmate would look better come Morning becaues a wolf had tried to kill him.

If he were an innocent, of course, she'd probably do the same, but my point is, don't write him off just because of what Sally said at endDay.

Like I said, now that I think about it, it's not as outlandish a possibility as I'd thought. That line from Sally didn't look staged to me, more like a spur-of-the-moment thing, which was what gave me pause.
The reason I voted Glirdan was that I thought his attack on Sally looked too aggressive and opportunitstic, and I really thought she'd probably turn out to be innocent.
Can it be that easy?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Like I said, now that I think about it, it's not as outlandish a possibility as I'd thought. That line from Sally didn't look staged to me, more like a spur-of-the-moment thing, which was what gave me pause.
The reason I voted Glirdan was that I thought his attack on Sally looked too aggressive and opportunitstic, and I really thought she'd probably turn out to be innocent.
Can it be that easy?

I think it can be that easy. I don't think Sally was planning on getting caught. Besides, the last two wolves might be using their two packmates as distractions in order to try to slip back into the village unnoticed. They probably won't be too eager to save Glirdy, no matter what role he is.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I think it can be that easy. I don't think Sally was planning on getting caught. Besides, the last two wolves might be using their two packmates as distractions in order to try to slip back into the village unnoticed. They probably won't be too eager to save Glirdy, no matter what role he is.

Looking at your 'trust' list, why do you 'trust more or less' Mira? I think she looks pretty furry at the moment.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Looking at your 'trust' list, why do you 'trust more or less' Mira? I think she looks pretty furry at the moment.

Mostly because I've never thought of her as evil in the least. She's looked pretty good to me - but, now that you mention it, I can't recall anything that she's said or done. Maybe she needs to move back into my Unsure category...that thing just keeps growing.

[Loslote]

Trust unreservedly:
Lottie

Trust nearly unreservedly:
Nog
Zil
Shasta
Nienna
Legate
Lommy

Trust more or less:
Brinn
Mira
Nerwen
Morsul
Skip

Unsure:
Wintywinty
Agan

Suspect:
Glirdan
Greenie

Will only vote those in the latter two categories. Preferably Glirdy.

EDIT: xed

[Brinniel]

Morsul does make a good point and it's certainly a possibility. But it could go either way. It's also possible Sally was making a double bluff and he's in fact innocent.

Glirdan entered the Day late and went through the thread page by page. He started suspecting Sally from the very beginning, and I'm not sure it's clear whether he was aware she was ahead in votes when he was posting these opinions. Though if he were a wolf, I would suspect he would check the vote tally first....if innocent, maybe not. Would an evil Glirdan go after his packmate so eagerly from the beginning of his posts for the Day? If they were both wolves, it would make sense for them to go against each other at the very end since a wolf will be lynched either way. But I don't think Glirdan was a serious candidate until the end of the Day and he started suspecting Sally before that. I suppose if he saw the vote tally and decided she was a lost cause, he could've chosen to throw her under the bus to make himself look better.

Hmm...this is something to think about. It seems quite possible Glirdan is indeed a wolf, but it's definitely something we can't be certain of. It'd be a really good idea to review both Sally and Glirdan's posts from the last two Days. Unfortunately, I will have to pass that task onto someone else as I need to write a debate due tomorrow I haven't even started. I'll be available for the next several hours to make brief comments, but I just won't have any time to write anything very substantial toDay.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Like I said, now that I think about it, it's not as outlandish a possibility as I'd thought. That line from Sally didn't look staged to me, more like a spur-of-the-moment thing, which was what gave me pause.

Well, I'd say it's spur-of-the-moment, but possibly also staged:

Nienna's vote on Sally came in one minute before DL. Sally read and commented on it:

What the....that doesn't even make sense. Not even commentary, just a vote?

You. Are. Bonkers.

Oh, and because Wilwa's bothering me....

++Glirdan

Judging from the time-stamps, she must have started typing the next post immediately after hitting "submit" on the previous one.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005
Nienna, Glirdan's a wolf. A WOLF! LYNCH HIM!@

I'm surrounded by mad people.

So, whatever her purpose, it's certainly a sudden change of tone. I don't think she'd been planning to do that all along– but she might have thought, "hey, since I'm going down, why not stage a 'desperate' last-second attack that will make my packmate look good?"

There's a question of whether Sally honestly believed she had a chance of changing the outcome at that point (right on DL).

I mean, I suppose she could have lost track of the time...

EDIT:wording

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As for Glirdan, I agree with the points Inzil brought against him late yesterday, especially the one about this quote -

Originally Posted by Glirdan

This whole post is waaaaay too defensive. It's a game of Werewolf, suspicions will come up, why are you being overly defensive? The only possible explanation for that would be that you're a Wolf trying to save your hide, so to speak.

To me, this looks like a wolf eager to hammer a packmate.


But that's enough about Glirdan. I'm sure he'll be analyzed to death today anyway. I think I'm going to look at Greenie - and I'd like that promised explanation about her vote.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul

Sally I think was planning a False Seer reveal, just look at this post:

The move only makes sense to gain our trust... Gaining one day isn't worth it. I mean 4 out of 16.... 3 out of 16 still gives us lots of time still I just don't see a one day gain worth it.

Might well be. But again, if her cry of "Glirdan's a wolf!" was meant to be the start of her "reveal", I have to wonder why she left it so late.

Did she expect more people to pick up on her Seer-hints than was in fact the case? Perhaps– look at this (shortly before DL):

#438

Originally Posted by Nienna

*is here...*

#439

Originally Posted by Sally

Oh thank tea! Lol.

*snuggles you*

So. I thought you had some things you wanted to ask me, but you never did so I never answered. Unless I missed them. Sorry.

That, in turn, refers to this exchange earlier:

#398

Originally Posted by Nienna

Stop defending yourself and tell us who you think are wolves or who you find suspicious and why.

#399

Originally Posted by Sally

I think you missed it. If you want more details I'm happy to give.

#402

Originally Posted by Nienna

Yes I did miss that... the formatting isn't eye-catching for me. I would love more details though.

#406

Originally Posted by Sally

*waves at Nienna*

Don't worry about it. I did that post right as I thought I'd be leaving so I didn't format it all pretty; my apologies. What do you need clarification on?

From this, I'd guess Sally was counting on Nienna to catch-on that she was the "Seer"– compare to her surprise and indignation when Nienna voted her (see my previous post). (This is all assuming Nienna's innocent, of course– otherwise we'd have to put it down to a sense of betrayal, but that doesn't seem very likely at the moment).

EDIT:X'd with Shasta.

[wintywinty]

I have an essay to finish writing, but directly afterwards I am going to analyze all of Glirdy's interactions with Sally, and then branch off and see if there are any posts of Sally's linking him to another wolf.

[Brinniel]

So it seems Nienna's vote was indeed the deciding vote of the Day. If I counted correctly, the final tally was 8-6. Had Nienna voted for Glirdan instead, it would've been a tie at 7-7 and since Glirdan would've received the last vote, he would've been lynched. So what does this say about Nienna?

If Glirdan is a wolf, she could be anything. If Glirdan is innocent, it would seem more likely that Nienna is innocent. Of course, it is always possible a Nienna-wolf threw her packmate under the bus, though that would've been a bold move since she did have the opportunity to save her. She would have to be pretty confident her team would do just as well if not better without Sally, or believe that Sally would probably be lynched soon anyway so she might as well make herself look better. I'm just not sure how likely that scenario actually is.

Btw, no one has mentioned Izzy's death. My first thought is she was an easy kill because she didn't receive much attention from most players. Though I wonder if there could be more to it. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to look through her posts too...if only I had the time.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Btw, no one has mentioned Izzy's death. My first thought is she was an easy kill because she didn't receive much attention from most players. Though I wonder if there could be more to it. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to look through her posts too...if only I had the time.

I was actually going to, but decided to do my Aganasis first. No one suspected Izzy. Not a one. She was never going to be lynched; she was quiet, and thus untraceable; she was really the obvious choice to be Night killed. Also, the wolves might have thought she was some kind of gifted, but that's stretching it.

EDIT: Oh, and...

Sally's a she. Not a he. Just sayin'.

[Loslote]

Edited out smilies.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

YYYYEEEHAAAA!

Because I don't know pretty much anything about the books, I'm going to be sensible/boring (depends on your point of view) and not even try to post in character (except for the next few sentences).

Okay things in the order in which they occurred to me.

I am your Queen and it's my business to order executions. You are not allowed to hurt me.
In other words, I am going to be mad if somebody kills me during the first few days/nights because I haven't played in a year and it's going to be long till I have time to play again. But this is just my personal opinion.

Just thought to tell you that I spent the Night walking around Helsinki dressed as a wolf because a friend wanted me to play one for her Little Red Riding Hood art project.

I always wonder why, if the mod starts a day early, they allow the wolves to PM at the same time that the village can talk. I would so want to seize the opportunity to do something silly with my fellows if I was in that situation.

Hahaha Fea.


Hey Shasta why does Fea's vote bother you? And why do you say 'still' when that's the first time you say it?

Brinn seems to be her normal self (ie she slightly rubs me the wrong way). But yeah she speaks sense, unlike most of the others.

By the way winty, we shouldn't edit our posts except to mark cross-posting. And it's true there are no reasons for votes yet, but that's why we're talking. Sooner or later somebody says or does something suspicious. Of course it helps if we have some corpses whose relations to living players we can observe, but first we need to get going.


No it doesn't make me evil, it only makes me unfaithful.

Yippee Greenie's tone strikes me as overly self-conscious! Nothing has indeed changed during my absence!


Usually when a newbie wolf enters the pack the older team members tell them to look just as new and ignorant and confused as they normally would and not to give away the slightest hint that they have received nightly counsel. And you have been a wolf enough times to know this is true. Or are you speculating about what you did last night?
What exactly made you draw attention to winty after two posts? It looks like a Nerwolf looking for an easy lynch.


Ahem what? Are you perchance giving advice to somebody?

The seer should keep in mind that they can't trust their dreams 100% because the cobbler appears as innocent. Last time I played in a game where the seer couldn't discern the cobbler's true identity, we wolves totally used it to our advantage and left him alive although he was supposedly a known innocent, and in the end we won because we could control his vote... Ah fond memories! But yeah that's why I think the cobbler should be killed as soon as possible (ie if the seer says 'X is an ordo' but we think 'X is damn suspicious' => lynch X), I've played in too many a game (three readily spring to mind) where people have said, 'Let's go for the most wolfish-looking person, we can deal with the cobbler later.' Well, when there are fewer and fewer people left, nobody wants to 'waste' a lynch on the cobbler and ta-da, soon the cobbler plays a crucial role in the evil victory.
Also, if the Cursed is turned (and the risk exists until they die and we see they were the Cursed), it practically destroys the seer's known innocent list.
I am saying this now as I've said this before, because it's better if the seer isn't sure than if the seer is too sure and wrong.


In a way yeah, but because people don't like random votes, it's likely they'd demand the said random-voters head on a platter for it.
Basically a wolf can vote in any way whatsoever, and playing a major role in the lynching of a wolf doesn't redeem anybody because wolves might as well sacrifice one for the pack to make the rest look good.

Okay I'm going to be here for, hmm, half an hour before I have to go.

Basic Day 1 post, as well as bringing up the cobbler issue - aka, Seer don't trust your dreams too much. Which makes sense.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Even if you don't understand why somebody does something, it doesn't make it silly. And what does it matter if they 'waste' their retractable votes early on? After all it's the wolves who benefit the most from them, and if everybody used theirs at once, we would eliminate the risk of wolf-organised lynches later.
I don't claim Fea's or winty's vote make them innocent, but Morsul is awfully quick to jump on them with flimsy reasoning.

Using the retractable votes quickly might be worth some discussion... Personally I would be happy with everybody using theirs as soon as possible. Innocents vote alone, but the wolves, having a way to communicate, can use their votes in a much broader scale. I seem to remember a game (phantom's last one, for those who know. In addition to their normal daily vote, every player had 10 extra votes they could use whenever they wished) where pretty much everybody else but the wolves used some of their votes during the first days. The wolves saved all or most of theirs for later and won because they could use their extra votes against the village all at once.
And when there is something like 6 people left, two of whom wolves, it does make a difference if the wolves can retract and the others cannot.


I was honestly expecting people would jump on my comment like 'You there are you trying to undermine the seer's authority and sow discord, you're a wolf!' so does the fact that you liked my point mean you're a wolf?


Yeah but there are some things that remain pretty much the same from game to game, among them that newbie wolves should behave as if they had no pack backing them up. And I don't think the "newbie or newbie wolf" question is a problem yet - thus far it's just a question, but you're trying to make it a problem. So we lynch winty and she/he was an innocent, and what have we left? An easy lynch and nothing else.


Mmh no, I fail to see a connection there. I think/thought you were talking about different things.

(Yay I had missed playing with you, too! <3)


Trust me, if I was looking for an easy day 1 lynch after a year's WW break, it would not be you.
Yeah his vote was random, but he is a newbie and at least I am willing to forgive newbies for things I wouldn't forgive for example people like you on day 1. It's alright to remark on it, but I think you were pushing it a tad too hard. Making it a bigger issue than it really was.


Okie dokie, I'm glad to hear that. And I mean we should go for the most suspicious person, regardless of whether we think they're a wolf or the cobbler. It's better to lynch we're-sure-she's-the-cobbler than we're-almost-sure-she's-a-wolf.


*hugs* It was beautiful work.
(Sorry I'm just talking about previous games all the time!)

Oh and people when quoting a vote post, is there any chance you could take off the higlights? It's a bit disturbing, especially when we have to do quick vote counts.

Hey winty have you played werewolf before on other forums? If yes you'll come to find that Barrowdowns werewolf is slightly more in-depth (or so I am told) than most others.


Thanks for saving my voice and speaking my thoughts aloud, dear husband.


Your conclusion = it was suspicious? I see but a plus-minus-zero situation.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't remember who's playing which character, so it would be nice if people used the player names instead of/in addition to character names in their posts.


I had no way of knowing you were talking about it.


Ah so was your vote then based on a nightly discussion with Brinn who said, 'Don't be too friendly towards me!'?


I would be darn happy if it was, but alas it is not.

As some of you might be aware of, the deadline is 04.30 my time which means I'm going to vote in a couple of hours.

Starts the "dump retractables, kthnxsbye" debate and responds to other posts (in what I must admit is a reasonable way).

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Innocent
Inzil. I agree with him about winty's vote and thus far he hasn't given me a reason to suspect him.
Lommy. I like her and she's reasonable and has a nice fluffy nose.
skip. I'm just so darn happy he's playing at last that I wouldn't vote for him today even if he revealed he was a wolf. Thus far he hasn't given much of a reason for me to worry though.
Legate. Alright enough.
Brinniel. There's always something about her style that makes me suspect her, however I don't find her overly suspicious at the moment and I approve of her trying to take the discussion out of IC banter.
Nienna. I don't think we've ever got past day 1 with both of us being alive, so just because of that I'll refrain from voting for her today. But she seems innocent enough anyway.

Guilty
Mira. Suspecting newbies is just way too easy, and at the same time she clears Fea's vote (despite the 'on a more serious note' start, the whole comment looked like a joke though).
Morsul. I don't like his reasoning, he seems way too quick to jump to conclusions. But maybe it's just his style. Out of curiosity, how many games have you actually played in, Morsul?
Lottie. I didn't really see any issue with Lottie's earlier behaviour (granted I just skimmed through her first posts because I was in a hurry and didn't think they contained anything very important). However I disagree with her later comments on people - although I don't know if it's because of the content or the style they're written. And that moves her from Nonsense onto the Guilty list. It feels sort of weird that she should make an analysis of a player (Glirdy) who has only posted some random IC banter, like, who makes an analysis on day 1 when there's so little to go on? And hahaha it's sort of grotesque to use the abbreviations WW and SS for the newbies.

Nonsense
Glirdy. Content? Where's the actual content?
Nog. The first one to say he was uneasy about Lottie's behaviour, wasn't he? For relatively little reason, I think ("infamous mode of "no bad person, even insane one, would do that kind of a thing").
winty. Newbie so I won't vote for her/him today. I think people read too much into his/her vote.
sally. Content? Where's the actual content?
Shasta. It's a worse welcome than voting that you suspect me because of my natural lynch-happiness.
Fea. I'm alright with her vote.
Green. She's another one whose tone always sets me off and I always think she's too laid-back to have the village's best interests in mind, but so far I don't havean opinion of her.
Nerwen. I think her reaction to winty's vote was exaggerated and it looks as if she was looking for an easy lynch, but Nerwen and I also have a history of being on each other's throats (usually it starts with me on Nerwen's throat) so I'm going to wait for more evidence (like the word terrible) before making a judgement.

Non-show
Boro
Isabell

**


I knew you wouldn't like it! Actually I was about to end it with *waits for Nog to come and tell her she's undermining the seer's authority* but didn't do it.
I think this is just one of our differences in views because I seem to recall having argued with you before about similar stuff...


Nope for me it isn't. What if I died today or in the night and nobody else had thought of it (if it's not of any great strategic importance, I prefer to say what I mean to say right away and not wait for a more relevant situation that may never come)? And if the seer can't fully trust their dreams, it's better they keep it in mind from the start, not only if/when they come out with their name list. I have won a game as a wolf because the seer trusted the cobbler was innocent, and if there's something I love, it's making my best so other wolves can't use my tricks to win when I'm not on their side.

I'm most likely going to vote for either Morsul or Mira today.

...first off I can't help but bring up that she puts Sally, Glirdy, and Greenie in her Nonsense list. Secondly I will, however, note that she is making sense in her cobbler-seer-dream response.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Greenie's last post moves her up towards my Innocent list because I agree with her (actually about everything) and she calls me lovely. However I wonder too if I should be worried that I don't suspect her, because usually when I do she's innocent.

Trusts Greenie more.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ookay I've never played with Morsul before so I don't know how he's supposed to behave, but I don't like him nonetheless and he's still a candidate for my vote.

I think Greenie and Legate and Lommy do have a point about Lottie and I might vote for her too but then again I'm unsure because I don't know her style.


I seem to recall seeing her post on Facebook, trying to convince TGEW to join and telling that if she did three Alaskans would be playing... so I assume that's the explanation.


Hahaha thanks!

And yeah sally you need to read closer because I'm not going to go through the pains of explaining it all again to you.

Says she might vote Morsul or maybe me; responding to Sally.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Lommy that's unfair you know how much I like crows!


I think in this case innocent = ordo. Both are seen as ordos.


That's true and that's why everybody should remember that a seer-dreamed innocent is not necessarily innocent after all...

Anyway Izzie seems innocent enough.

Morsul if everyone else calls your 'scientific method' knee-jerk, have you perchance thought there might be something wrong with your definition?

Now I'll go brew some mint leaves and will be soon back to vote.

Makes a good point to Morsul (mebbe you should take this into account, dear? Just sayin'...) and restates her seer-dream-cobbler point.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey Nog you posted the same post twice.


Sorry but would you care to speak English that's understandable even to a non-native speaker so I don't have to spend a twice longer time reading your post than I would need for anyone else?

As you might have noticed I didn't play in last game. And it's perfectly alright to point out what you find odd, but your thought process in the post I found suspicious seemed half-hearted and lazy and somehow far-fetched too (the part that Lommy or someone else pointed out). Give better reasons for your suspicions and I might change my mind about you.

But yeah as for now

[*highlight]++Mirandir[/highlight*]

because thus far she seems the most suspicious to me.

oh and

[*highlight]--Mirandir[/highlight*]
[*highlight]++Mirandir[/highlight*]

as I dislike retrackies anyway, and this is what I think everyone should do because otherwise the wolves will probably use them against us in the end.

I'll hang around here till I've finished my tea and will go to sleep then.

Votes Mira, then follows her own advice and dumps her retractables.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

She went to sleep, but I think it's pretty obvious Greenie meant Lottie was the only one she had any valid points on. At least her earlier posts suggest it.

Responds about confusion about Greenie's vote post.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Fea - Lottie
winty - Brinn
Lommy - Lottie
Boro - Glirdy
Green - Lottie
Morsul - winty
Agan - Mira

Lottie-3, Mira-1, winty-1, Glirdy-1, Brinn-1

Retraction left: everybody but Agan & sally

I think we really should keep track on who has used their retraction and who hasn't, and that everyone should use them asap, because as I've said they are more useful to the wolves than to us.

Vote count and reiteration that people should dump their retractables.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Just returned back to my old self because I like it better and recognise it faster.

Responding about her avie switch.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Imagine some innocents, a couple of wolves. The innocents have used (most of) their retractions, the wolves haven't. The wolves can vote for whomever is the most convenient for them and then, when most other votes have been given, unite and direct their votes towards an innocent who is lynched, and nobody else can do anything. Because I can see that scenario, I'd rather eliminate it before the wolves have even a chance to try it.


Mmh yeah but the wolves have the advantage of being able to talk in private. That way they can make plans about using the votes, among other things, whereas whatever we others say, the wolves see it too. And the wolves are fine with killing anybody but one of them, while it's not quite so simple for us. So even if the retractable votes might be useful for us, we can't really base our plans on them...



Mostly because of this comment though:

Basically, "It's suspicious because it could go either way."


Might happen. However it's always best for the seer to not reveal during the last-minute voting frenzy.
Also, retractable votes and the 'who receives the highest number of votes last' rule are a bad combination in the case of a tie because if a wolf (or somebody else) wants to drive a lynch, they wait till the last possible moment, retract and vote again.


Haha sorry. On one hand I'm sorry to let go of my previous avvie (a Goya painting ♥) but on the other hand... Scar is Scar, and worth another ♥.

Okay I'll go to sleep now, night babies.

More retractable dumping encouraging.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Okay I don't have too much time now...

*is sad about Boro's death*


Me too but I'm happy she was lynched in the end. That's what happens when you think you know better what Fea is doing...


No s*it Sherlock!
I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs. However it's likely that the wolves spend more time looking for possible connections than the innocents. But on the other hand, Lottie might have been a relatively easy lynch today... So I don't really know.


Good morning Brinn! And to be honest I'm quite surprised that Lommy is posting as early as at 11.

Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.
And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot (by the way last night I had a dream I was a wolf. Inzil was too).


I'd like to know that too (and not only because I'm one of her wolves) and I would totally be suspecting her because of it if she wasn't the other Shirriff... Because I have yet to see a day 1 when someody pins down all the wolves at once (oh wait I did that in Mith's game! But granted it was jokingly).

Okay a proper look at yesterday now.

Says the *is sad about Boro's death* line that I still don't like (I never like being sad about the Night kill; I think it screams wolf, but I can see where some wouldn't); says she'll have to look at Sally herself (understandable) but then also says "And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot" which I find strange and somewhat suspicious...then understandably asks for clarification on my suspicions.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

Um...okay. Looking more closely, I can see your point there, and this really does seem like a frustrated innocent...

Originally Posted by Aganzir

What do you mean by this?


Yeah I know, it wasn't an accusation (of not posting enough, not of wolvery), just a remark that there was nothing I considered important in your posts. And the pleasure is mine.

#128: I don't think I'm on the same wavelength with Nog, there are just some differences in the way we think (seems to happen always), but I think he looks quite good for the time being. If he was a wolf, I don't think he would've brought up Fea's behaviour (does the cursed know about her status, could Fea be the cobbler etc).


What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.


That's what I think of her too - always. I try to be careful not to suspect her every time because of it, but she and I aren't on the same wavelength, either... Although hmm I should probably check some old games (just to get some statistics) because there have been times I've decided not to suspect her simply because she doesn't feel right to me and she's turned out to be a wolf.


That's the way alliances are made, darling.

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.
He also considered Fea but didn't vote for her simply because he didn't think she was a wolf, and then attacked the Lottie-wagoners, saying the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?


Izzy as I remember her has never been one of the loudmouths, but I don't know if that's changed during my absence.

Hmm reading Glirdan's post (#142) and it seems my comment about the unlikeliness of pinning all the wolves on day 1 can be more or less ignored. Although I still think it's darn unlikely, and it's dangerous to be so convinced so early.

I think Izzy looks good.

I would love to see more substance from sally. Not too fond of her at the moment.


It will not actually help us, but if nobody had their retractions, it wouldn't help the wolves either, and that's what I'm after... However I see I'm not getting much support. Quite a few people have said they want to save their votes because they've been in a situation before where their vote has been the decisive one. Might well be there's a wolf among them, but I have no time to pursue that further now.


Who has said that? I don't disagree, I just can't for the life in me remember having seen anyone talk about Brinn before your vote.

I like Glirdan for now.

I have to go now (going to see a play with a friend, yay!), will be back some time in the evening.

Basic summary post in which she sort of suspects Zil and doesn't suspect Izzy or Glirdy. No one suspected Izzy, though, so that really doesn't say much at all.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Okay I'm seriously going to kill Lommy if she's a wolf because I love her vote analysis post and generally seem to agree with her quite much.


And I don't like Lottie the Known Innocent being convinced I'm a baddie with flimsy and subjective "I've already decided you're a wolf and do my best to pick up only those things you've done that back up my theory" reasons. If she wasn't a known innocent I'm pretty certain wouldn't be picking a fight with her but attacking her in return.


Yeah, on that I agree, and I suppose I make too big a deal of it but once I got started, it just felt natural to carry on with it. I still think it would be good if no one had their retraction left in a couple of days, but I see that's very unlikely to happen (and in that light, it was a mistake to waste mine, but I am a woman of my word). Still, those who haven't used their retraction should be kept an eye on, and not just during the last days when it can really make a difference because then it's already too late (the wolves can always come up with an excuse to save their retraction for a few days).
I am not telling anybody to do it, but I think it's what an innocent would do...

Hey Zil sorry if I've missed something but I don't think I got an answer to my question:


I think knowing sally's role would shed some light on other people, but although I have nothing against her death, I don't like Morsul's vote. It doesn't seem genuine, it looks as if he was intentionally trying to come up with reasons to vote for her. Okay Nienna phrased it better than me, I basically agree with her.


Yes in the same way as when a wolf you haven't been suspecting dies. It didn't occur to you that they were a wolf so you're surprised, although in hindsight you should've (or could have) guessed. But I don't think that's a very important issue.

Hey Nienna you didn't answer my question:



The thing is, nobody said that you have good insights and you're a very good player/wolf - during the day. Winty says it's something many have said, but who has he heard it from if no one has said so here? Lottie how much have you been talking to him about the Downs, and have you praised Brinn to him?
It might be newbie behaviour, but I think it's pretty darn suspicious newbie behaviour. And although Brinn brought up other points against him (you can't vote for someone early and explain it by things "others have said"), her reaction to winty's post is somewhat lesser than I imagined it would be. It looks as if she was giving him advice, but if they were fellows why did he vote for her then? Of course it's possible she's nothing but an experienced player instructing a newbie, regardless of their roles...

Understandably is annoyed by me (I am sorry, dear, I plead temporary insanity due to sickness...flimsy excuse, I know ) and ponders about Brinn and WW.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Okay thanks. I haven't changed my mind about her ww suspicion, but I'd like to hear more from her.


Nope, they can do it as early as on day 1 if their fellow comes under heavy suspicion (or if they think there's no chance that their fellow is lynched). It's happened before and will continue to happen because it's just so darn convenient for the wolves.


Seriously it was a newbie's first post.


Not the same thing because their styles are different. Morsul's struck me as opportunistic whereas Lottie was mostly just too over-confident to my liking.


No it wouldn't. If Nerwen had given me a reason to suspect her beyond her treatment of ww, I would have - regardless of my role.


Me too and that's why I said Lommy and Mac may laugh at me (they both have been targets for my forceful and unjust attacks more than once ).


Nope because as long as the game is running I'm not going to talk of it outside of the game thread. Who knows, I might be the seer who just dreamed of Wolfziladun, or it might be a lie I told for a reason unknown to you.
In any case, I can't remember anything more about the dream so I don't think I will even after the game is over.


Yes but what was so suspicious about the Lottie-wagon in the first place? You just decided it was fishy but when looking at the Lottie-voters, none of them was suspicious enough to receive your vote. Usually people and their reasons for voting make a bandwagon suspicious, not the other way round.


By itself it's not, but I think it's far more likely that the wolves use their retraction to kill an innocent than the other way round. Yeah I know they can be useful to the innocents too, but their benefit for the wolves is more imminent.


What I don't disagree about is that Brinn is a good player and, if a wolf, asset to the wolf team (I've been a wolf with her and heck she's brilliant). I can hardly disagree (in the sense I understand the word) on what ww claims to be the reason for his vote.


Most of the things, I would say.


I don't like that comment. I wasn't planning to do it, but that looks too much like a threat. Yeah yeah I might be totally overestimating how important the wolves consider the retrackies, but still.

I think sally should be suspected more often if it gets her to speak seriously.

Makes pretty good points...

Originally Posted by Aganzir

GUILTY
Morsul. I still don't like his reasoning but I don't know if I'm reading too much into it because apparently everyone else (who has played with him before) is fine with it.

Mira. I don't have anything on her except for her weird treatment of winty, but she's staying here until she gives me a reason to consider her innocent. If she's a wolf, I'll be almost convinced Inzil is not.

winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly.

Inzil. I don't like his comment about the Lottie wagon. Plus he seems to trust Lottie enough to consider her suspects (or all of them except for, conveniently, Greenie) serious enough to go through them himself but still thinks it's appropriate of me to ask Lottie why she's so sure... If he's a wolf I think Greenie should be looked closely at, and the other way round (I'm just afraid it would be too obvious though). And of course knowing his role would shed some light on Mira's. Actually I might well vote for him today.

INNOCENT
Lottie. Although I do think her suspicion of me is bad (obviously since I'm innocent) and she's generally too convinced about people's guilt too early.

Lommy. Speaks sensibly and things I can easily agree on. Of course there's a chance she's fooling me magnificently but at the moment I'm not too concerned about that, because she really seems innocent.

Isabell. Speaks sense and I find myself agreeing with her, although I'm not sure if I should be worried because I also have a history of mistrusting her when she's innocent (ie always, except for her first game, but it doesn't count because we were fellows).

Nienna. She is sensible and has a generally innocent air.

skip. I think he looks quite innocent, and of course I might misjudge him but I don't think he'd ask if the wolves knew the cobbler's identity if he was one.

Legate. Had a small dispute with Inzil, I don't know what to make of it but I'd like to know Inzil's role for sure soon. Seems quite innocentish.

EITHER
Nog. Still looks innocent enough, and he nailed Fea which I don't think a wolfish Noggy had done (hmm except that one of my first lessons was that Wolfgrod does anything that makes him look innocent, even at a cost to his pack). Okay I don't think he's guilty but I'm not convinced about his innocence either so he's here.

sally. Seems to be today's favourite lynch target. Mostly banter and that's almost enough of a reason for me to vote for her. Plus her death would shed light on other people. I think her reaction to being suspected was outraged in an innocentish way, though.

Glirdan. Haven't formed an opinion, and because I want to go to sleep soon it will have to wait.

Shasta. See Glirdan.

Greenie. No new material, people have brought up points against her but I will have to look at it, and I don't think her vote was so bad.

Brinniel. Innocentish and sensible but her reaction to winty's reasoning didn't sit quite right with me. Will have to see more.

Nerwen. She's the last because I'm at the moment rather undecided about her. I didn't like how she jumped on winty's day 1 vote (come on he's a newbie), but apart from that she's been innocentish. However she's Nerwen so you never know.

Again, can't help but notice that she doesn't give an opinion on Sally, Glirdy, and Greenie...

Originally Posted by Aganzir

How about you first explain to me...

...why his vote is more suspicious because it could go either way? That was my main issue about your post, not the fact that you defended Fea.
Do you also want me to explain again why I suspected Morsul more than Lottie?

Oh and do you have any other reason to consider voting for me but that I suspect you?

And wintywinty now that you're apparently here, could you please answer my question? Who said Brinn is a good player?

Reasks WW a good question; responds to questions.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Oh. I'm sorry. It was intended to scream somebody who likes Boro and is happy to play with him for the first time in a year and doesn't approve of him getting killed after just one day.


Yeah because I suspected Mira. Correct me if I'm wrong but although I also suspected you, I don't think I was ever calling for your death.
And because people didn't have an opinion about what I said, I wasn't being helpful? I wasn't contributing but tried to look as if I were? Sorry but that's ridiculous.


I doubt it. You've already decided I'm a wolf.


Okay in that case I really wonder what to make of his comment, and I might vote for him because of it.

...okay, you weren't wrong, I was. I'm sorry, again. And this does look like a frustrated innocent...

...in fact that's what I kind of have to conclude. So, all in all, my anti-Agan crusade yesterDay was mostly insane. There was mostly just that one "she keeps putting Sally, Glirdy, and Greenie in her unsure categories" argument and the fact that I don't like people saying that they're sad about the Night kill. So bump Agan to the "trust more or less" category. Sorry about that, Agan.

EDIT: xed since Nerwen