Sauron's lack of Death...

[Eldy]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Aslan is a hero, though. Not a protagonist, I'll grant you. I'm interested in the nature of how fantasies deal with their villains, which is why I brought it up. Where the usual instinct is to repay evil with evil, in Tolkien's case it is to stop Sauron and Melkor from doing further damage (mainly because they cannot be made to stop existing). In Harry Potter, it is still death, that stops Voldemort.

Fair enough; perhaps I was drawing too fine of a distinction there. I'd point out though that in the case of Melkor (at least, as it is told in Myths Transformed, though the canon status of those texts are questionable), he was physically executed, and his spirit then banished into the Void. I think bodily death is close enough for an indestructible spirit.

Thinking about it though, bodily death is all that occurs for many. Elves and Men both have souls that continue to 'live' after their bodies die. It's not clear what happens to the Istari, but Saruman's spirit seemed to endure for at least a minute or so, and given that he was a Maia I would expect it did for longer. I think anything with a soul or spirit can endure bodily death. Sauron stands out in that his spirit remains in mortal lands, though.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eldorion

Thinking about it though, bodily death is all that occurs for many. Elves and Men both have souls that continue to 'live' after their bodies die. It's not clear what happens to the Istari, but Saruman's spirit seemed to endure for at least a minute or so, and given that he was a Maia I would expect it did for longer. I think anything with a soul or spirit can endure bodily death. Sauron stands out in that his spirit remains in mortal lands, though.

Assuming Christianity (of which Tolkien was a believer), does anyone ever die? Surely there was a time before we existed (outside the knowledge of God), but after our souls are 'born,' we are then eternal. Our bodies may go to the ground, but our souls live on, either in eternal bliss or that other place from which all spambots come.

Isn't Sauron then just like that?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by alatar

Assuming Christianity (of which Tolkien was a believer), does anyone ever die? Surely there was a time before we existed (outside the knowledge of God), but after our souls are 'born,' we are then eternal. Our bodies may go to the ground, but our souls live on, either in eternal bliss or that other place from which all spambots come.

Isn't Sauron then just like that?

Perhaps the distinction comes in that death in the Christian myth still requires to transfer of the 'soul' to some other realm (heaven). In Middle Earth there is a sense of this to some degree - eleves to the halls of Mandos, Melkor to the void. Sauron still roams Arda, as a disembodied spirit, unable to do anything or influence anyone. A kind of living death more so than the Nazgul.
It's difficult to make the distinction when there is some idea of an after life.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Sauron still roams Arda, as a disembodied spirit, unable to do anything or influence anyone. A kind of living death more so than the Nazgul.
It's difficult to make the distinction when there is some idea of an after life.

So *that's* where ghosts come from...

[Blind Guardian]

Hi, Sort of new here,


I was reading this and wondered, in The Silmarillion (of which I did not read all) it described that the Ilúvatar (right?) created a sun and a moon. Later it stated that Morgoth wanted to destroy both. Wouldn't there at least be some common sense in it? Like we can't destroy our sun, he should not be able to destroy theirs, right?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I was reading this and wondered, in The Silmarillion (of which I did not read all) it described that the Ilúvatar (right?) created a sun and a moon. Later it stated that Morgoth wanted to destroy both. Wouldn't there at least be some common sense in it? Like we can't destroy our sun, he should not be able to destroy theirs, right?

Blind Guardian, welcome!

Initially, all light came from the Lamps of the Valar, which were like two big street lamps, one at each end of the (flat) world. After these were toppled by Melkor, the Two Trees of Valinor lit Aman, and Middle Earth was dark. These Trees were murdered by Ungoliant (with Melkor's help), and their last fruits were 'hallowed' and placed into vehicles that traveled the skies. The sun craft was driven by Arien, who is like a female 'good' Balrog. The moon craft, driven round by Tilion, isn't as timely as the sun, and even got a little too close to the sun, and that's why we see those dark marks on the Moon.

Note that these popped up when humans arose, and so we don't know any different arrangement.

Anyway, until the world was bent, these crafts had to pass over the flat world, then make a trip underneath so that they could 'rise' from the same side each time (though once the Sun rose from the West!).

This process made them targets for Melkor, but, as we know, he never destroyed these lights (not that he didn't try). After the world became a sphere and Melkor was thrust into the Void, the sun and moon became safe.

It happened 'just so.' More could be said.

[Blind Guardian]

Interesting. Common sense is screaming at me that you can't destroy the sun and the moon and that the world isn't flat. I need to read the Silmarillion. Might I ask how Morgoth destroyed the sun and moon?





PS Every LotR word is in this Mac's dictionary O_O