Three Elven Kings

[ArquenoSingollo72]

Who are, or rather were the "Three Elven Kings Under Sky", were they for the three kindreds of the elves, the Vanyar, Noldor & Teleri, which the latter two were by the second age were much mingled, or were they for Gil Galad, Oropher & Malgalad/Amdir, please help!

[Mithalwen]

This is being a bit picky but it is "Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky". You have inferred this to mean that there are three kings but that isn't necessarily true.

Partly I think there is a little poetic licence on the part of the translator of the poem to allow for some "elegant variation" in vocabulary. Kings is used because there are also dwarf lords and the Dark Lord but I think elven lords would be more accurate for the time referred to.

The rings of power were created by the Noldor with Sauron and I don't think that the Silvan realms even with Sindarin Kings, are referred to.

Gil galad was the High King of the Noldor it was a bit of an empty title even in the second age. In Beleriand where the grandsons of Finwe had realms it was more appropriate but in the second age there was only Lindon then Ost in Edhil and then Rivendell. I think Celebrimbor was called Lord of Eregion rather than King and Elrond was merely Master of a Household. So as far as the ring rhyme is concerned the "kings" were Cirdan, Gilgalad (then Elrond), and Galadriel.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I would say... Sometimes the answer is so easy that one does not even consider it?

Especially since this poem was made only after the Rings have been already distributed (and probably for a long time), this obviously means plainly their original three owners, or their bearers at the time of making of the poem (I don't think there is any evidence as to when exactly it has been made, but definitely "old"). Since three are mentioned, it must have been Gil-Galad, Galadriel and Círdan; possibly even with Elrond instead of Gil-Galad, if the verse is of later date and spoke about the contemporary bearers.

It certainly does not mean that the Rings would be "made to be given" to any Kings, it just means that "Three Elves have Three Rings, Seven Dwarves have Seven..." etc.

There certainly have not been any "kings" (except for Gil-Galad) in the literal sense of the word, but they were all powerful rulers of the Elves, and technically speaking, they were kings (and a queen).

(edit: crossposted with Mith)

[aldredheron]

Just looking at the books and one of the first things that you see is the ring-lore
Three Rings for Elven Kings Under the sky
Seven for the Dwarf Lords in Their Halls of Stone
Nine for Mortal Man Doomed to die
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness Bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie
Thinking it through the whole poem is not said once in the whole 9 or more hours of film, this has to be the greatest travesty -

[Lalaith]

I was quite intrigued by one aspect of ArquenoSingollo72's original question (welcome by the way!)...could the three rings and their owners in any way correspond to the three elven kindreds?
Cirdan - Teleri
Gilgalad - Noldor (all we can assume with the absence of mothers in the genealogy)
Galadriel's foremothers are however mentioned and through them she has the blood of all three kindreds in her veins: Vanyar, Teleri and Noldor.

Elrond - he had the lot of course, Teleri, Noldor, Maia, the three houses of Men...all except Vanyar.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Elrond - he had the lot of course, Teleri, Noldor, Maia, the three houses of Men...all except Vanyar.

If I'm not mistaken, Elrond's paternal great-grandmother, Elenwe, Turgon's wife, was a Vanya. So Elrond had it all, so to speak.

[Lalaith]

Elenwe, Turgon's wife, was a Vanya

Now this got me interested, too - I'd not seen that before. I uncovered this bit of research:
http://www.silmarillionwritersguild....pdf/elenwe.pdf

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Now this got me interested, too - I'd not seen that before. I uncovered this bit of research

Interesting. It's strange, though, that the belief that Elenwe was a Vanya significantly predates the publication of the HoME books, and this outside of the fan fiction community (to which I was not introduced, LotR-wise, until the early 1990s, though I had been involved in the academic communities long before that). There must be something that prompted this belief, and someday, when I have the time for a good detailed digging through reference materials, I'll see if I can figure out where that came from.

Regardless, Elrond is still part Vanya. If one dismisses Elenwe's origins, then one can trace it through Turgon, as he is a grandson of Finwe and Indis, the latter of whom was definitely a Vanya. It seems that with very few exceptions, if Tolkien describes an Elf as "golden haired" (which is how he describes Idril in TS), somewhere you will find an ancestor of the Vanyar (which makes one wonder about Glorfindel and Thranduil...).

[Lalaith]

Yes, I was thinking much the same thing: Idril's blonde locks are fairly conclusive evidence.

[Galin]

In the Silmarillion (Of Maeglin): '... for she [Idril] was golden as the Vanyar, her mother's kindred, and...'

This can be found in the 1951 text, noted as 'A' in III Maeglin in The War of the Jewels. 'A' also noted that: 'Alaire, was of the Vanyar and would not forsake Valinor', which seems to agree with the unfinished early 1950s Fall of Gondolin (Unfinished Tales), that Alaire remained in Aman.

The passage describing Idril being golden (and so on) appears to have been taken up into the late typescript (see III Maeglin again, WJ) and received no change.