Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

aldredheron, Welcome to the Downs!

Originally Posted by aldredheron

The fact that Gandalf loses to the Witch-King shows how heroic Eowyn was in standing up to him.

That would be true if Eowyn was shown to be heroic. Sure, she takes out the Witch-King, the biggest baddest Boss in this level.

Then what happens? She runs, limps away from the Gimpy Gothmog, a mere Orc, and is saved only by the action of another (Aragorn's).

So is she the bomb or what? My issue is that I wish PJ would make up his mind.

[Sarumian]

Hello aldredheron,

That's a good point, and though it has been discussed somewhere in the thread, I like the way you formulate it. Let me repeat shortly what I tried to say in my previous posts.

The fact Eowyn withstands Witch King makes her undoubtedly heroic, as she is a human and is not supposed to bear such a terror, so Gandalf doesn't need to loose in order to stress this. But Gandalf's failure makes her some sort of Hollywood superhero who wins whenever it is scheduled in the script regardless how silly it could look. If she was able to dispatch such an enemy, why not to deal with Sauron in the same way?

Let me bring here this quote from the other forum:

http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12663

vgunn

A bit more is mentioned by Tolkien in his letters. Here is something from #156.

Quote:

"He [Gandalf] is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel'. ..... He [Gandalf] alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgul to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed – and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands."

Moreover, without making Eowyn more heroic, PJ makes Gandalf look completely ridiculous, after the latter describes himself in The Two Towers as the most dangerous creature in ME save for Sauron. Having said that Gandalf is not able to withstand Witch King. Very silly.

On top of that the scene makes a great confusion about the course of events in ME. We know that the power of Witch King is provided by Sauron. In order to switch off another maia, Sauron needed to invest most of his remaining power into the Black Captain; as someone wrote in other forum, he, in fact, had to inhabit Witch King's body. In this case Witch King's preliminary end would have been as disastrous for Sauron as the loss of the Ring. He would definitely have lost the ability to keep his numerous armies in obedience and probably his shadowy embodiment as well. Nothing like this happens neither in the book nor in the movie.

There was also an idea that PJ made Gandalf a lesser being than an angelic spirit of maia, so he didn't supersede Witch King in power. However, Gandalf says in The Two Towers that his name was Olorin and in The Felowship he courteously introduces himself to Balrog as a wielder of the flame of Anor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Fire

I am referring to PJ's movies, not to books only. If Gandalf is not an embodiment of maia Olorin, we can't say who Sauron is etc, the whole Tolkien's universe will not work and it's going to be a different fiction.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

We know that the power of Witch King is provided by Sauron. In order to switch off another maia, Sauron needed to invest most of his remaining power into the Black Captain; as someone wrote in other forum, he, in fact, had to inhabit Witch King's body. In this case Witch King's preliminary end would have been as disastrous for Sauron as the loss of the Ring. He would definitely have lost the ability to keep his numerous armies in obedience and probably his shadowy embodiment as well. Nothing like this happens neither in the book nor in the movie.

I'm no Tolkien scholar myself and I admit seeing the idea of Sauron needing to inhabit the Witch King's body as quite far fetched, but I can see you are making a tough question - and a justified one. So how come the loss of the Witch King didn't affect Sauron more than it did - or did it? I mean whatever the connection was, there surely was one - and thus losing it would have an effect (think about the talk of the elven Rings losing power).

Sure one can entertain the idea that after the death of the Witch King the battle at the Pelennor Fields was over (like it was in a sense) and that Sauron could muster the heavy forces to go against the "goodies" only as it was at the gates of Mordor, near enough for him to personally rally his troops...

But if the loss of the Witch King was a big deal enough, so how strong/weak he was?

Heh, was that possible weakness of Sauron after losing his first magic general actually the thing that got Gandalf to agree with the plan of going and challenging Mordor head on? If Sauron would have been in full power he could have both taken care of the rag-tag army of the goodies and watch out for any surprises? I had never thought of the death of the Witch King as a reason why Sauron was too weak to catch Frodo in time... Interesting.

I am referring to PJ's movies, not to books only. If Gandalf is not an embodiment of maia Olorin, we can't say who Sauron is etc, the whole Tolkien's universe will not work and it's going to be a different fiction.

I'm not sure if I get you right here but to me it's fairly simple. What PJ did concerns the films only. He has no authorship over the universe Tolkien created. He can make his own interpretations like everyone of us can (PJ's imaginations sure have more effect than the fabulations of you or me!), but it is, like you say, a different fiction then.

Gandalf was a maia (whatever name or embodiment you call him with) as Sauron was, and the Lord of the Rings tells about the fight between these two left to fight it together as the other higher powers receded from the ME - with all the side characters like Frodo, Aragorn, Gollum, the Witch King etc. (Okay, let's fill in Saruman as the third real player.)

And surely Eru was back there pulling the strings and thus in the last instance making all the efforts of both (all) parties insignificant; but on the personal level where they were being able to look oneself from the mirror, or not.

Confused indeed.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So how come the loss of the Witch King didn't affect Sauron more than it did - or did it? I mean whatever the connection was, there surely was one - and thus losing it would have an effect (think about the talk of the elven Rings losing power).

I don't see the destruction of the WK as something Sauron would have felt personally.
The Nazgûl were connected to Sauron, true, but the reverse was not the case. Gandalf said of the Ringwraiths:

'The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him.'

FOTR The Ring Goes South

Sauron's power held the Nazgûl to the earth and held sway over their wills, so his fall would be theirs. But he would not have been diminished by their passing. How could he be? He was losing nothing but servants, when it came down to it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sure one can entertain the idea that after the death of the Witch King the battle at the Pelennor Fields was over (like it was in a sense) and that Sauron could muster the heavy forces to go against the "goodies" only as it was at the gates of Mordor, near enough for him to personally rally his troops...

While the loss of his most powerful field commander would have been a heavy blow from a military standpoint, I don't think that in itself had any crippling effect on Sauron or his army. It was demoralising for the rank-and-file-troops, no doubt, but I think the totem of Sauron in the minds of his slaves was enough to overcome that. Certainly you would have seen no cowardice or questioning of orders in Sauron's armies on the battlefield, though the odd Orc or two might voice some displeasure. And Sauron had the sheer numbers to overwhelm the West.
Gandalf did not think Sauron incapable of taking the offensive again after the battle of the Pelannor.

'Hardly has our strength sufficed to beat off the first great assault. The next will be greater.'

ROTK The Last Debate

Gandalf saw no loss in Sauron's war-making ability due to the WK being done in. As Gandalf put it, he would have been capable either of besieging and capturing Minas Tirith, or destroying militarily any army attacking him in Mordor. The point of Gandalf advising the assault on Mordor was not that they would have an easier time of it now that the WK was dead, but that Sauron would hopefully assume Aragorn had the Ring and turn all his attention his way.

[needfiction]

Can I just tell everyone here that it's nothing short of incredible to find a thread via Google that started FIVE YEARS AGO and is still going?!

The debate will never be answered, but I visit so many forums where discussion breaks down in less than an hour to name calling.

Its even more incredible because I guess the original poster is not even active here anymore? It's like dropping a pebble in the ocean, and you walk away, not seeing the tidal wave you created on the other side of the planet somehow.

I found this thread while rewatching the EE again, and I've always hated that scene. It just doesn't fit. So Google brought me here. I can't add to five years of debate, but just wanted to give a nod to you all.

Well done to all who debated this so well!!!

[alatar]

Welcome to the discussion, needfiction! This is the scene that brought me here as well, many years back.