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Old 02-11-2010, 06:27 PM   #1
The Might
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Indeed, well done Esty!
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Old 05-03-2010, 12:49 AM   #2
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I would be just stating the obvious if I was also only repeating how well written and informative this chapter is. Indeed, well done, Esty! But as to avoid being repetitive, and also to prove the point that there is always something to improve, let me be constructive here.

There is something missing in the chapter.

*dramatic pause*

Yes, well, that happens. It's a rather minor thing, but maybe I should now tell myself "Sam Gamgee, if you had been paying more attention when Esty was asking for help around here, you might have brought it up and prevented this incorrectness in the article!" (But maybe not, it is usually rather random what kind of associations spring to one's mind.) Anyway, as to not to walk around the subject for too long time... there was something in the article about the use of horns as signal instruments and instruments of war, very well written, but the whole paraghraph is concluded with the words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Steimel
"Horns and trumpets are mentioned as belonging to the enemies during battle scenes. Since it is never said elsewhere of Orcs that they have and play such instruments, it is fairly certain that they must have been used by Sauron's human allies: Easterlings, Haradrim, and others."
Where I, of course, have to oppose this and stand in defence of the Orcs' musical culture. Well, I assume you cannot call it "music", but as I read this text, one quote sprung automatically into my mind. Do the words "hideous clamor" ring the bell?*

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Very End Of Two Towers
Sam heard a burst of hoarse singing, blaring of horns and banging of gongs, a hideous clamour. Gorbag and Shagrat were already on the threshold.
I doubt you can call it real music, but then again, it definitely is music at least for the Orcs - and quite complicated one (at least compared to what one would expect from Orcs)! We have "percussion" just as the essay mentions, but of a different, unmentioned type (gong!) and we also have horns, which proves that, in contrary to the above-quoted statement, the Orcs likely did use them as much as other races did (it is likely, in my opinion, that they "stole and twisted" the horn from other races, just as they do it with everything, but anyway, they are using it now). What more, the Orcs sing, which, put together with all the rest, makes quite an amazing "symphony", doesn't it? I have always seen Gorbag as one of the Orc "philosophers of metaphysics" (because of his peculiar words about "darkness on the other side"), now is his counterpart Shagrat a secret musical talent?

Cirith Ungol was anyway a "musical tower" by itself. In the continuing adventures of Mr. Gamgee, we read that upon passing the Silent Watchers for the first time,
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotK
Far up above, like an answering signal, a harsh bell clanged a single stroke.
An automated glockenspiel? Most curious, anyway, since this thing operated by itself, it is likely that it was connected to the magic of the Watchers, i.e. some "black magic" not used by the Orcs but put there by some more powerful servants of Sauron, nevertheless, it is an instrument and in any case, you had to have a bell there in the first place for it to be able to make a sound. The Orcs had really all things needed for starting a small orchestra on their own! Personally, I'd think the bell was up there since the Gondorian era (as the tower of Cirith Ungol was built by them and we know of the use of bells in Minas Tirith, however, here the bell is used as a warning signal - just like in Dale, by the way -cf. the Dwarves' song! Ai, ai, I don't think this is mentioned in the article either).

The bell of Cirith Ungol rings again when Frodo and Sam escape the Tower (and the gate with the Watchers is destroyed) and later, as they are running away,

Quote:
Originally Posted by RotK; Land of the Shadow
Away behind them, now high above on the mountain-side, loomed the Tower of Cirith Ungol, its stones glowing dully. Suddenly its harsh bell clanged again, and then broke into a shattering peal. Horns sounded.
That's when the reinforcements of the Orcs called by the Nazgul are coming to the Tower to investigate. Probably this is announcing their coming (much like in the original quote about Gorbag and Shagrat) or maybe it's a signal to begin the search (something like "assembled, ready, go!").

In any case... I actually found this fascinating (I started originally with that one quote and thought of the rest in the middle of writing this), and hopefully it was also helpful - maybe, Esty, if you are at some point re-publishing your article or making a similar presentation elsewhere, this could give you a little more material to consider

*I had no idea yet, when writing this, that I will be actually mentioning a bell itself in here as well Could be interpretated as poetic joke, if it had been intentional.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:50 AM   #3
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Thank you for adding that reference, Legate! I do appreciate thoughtful and knowledgeable readers! I did miss that orc passage and have noted it for future use.

It's a dangerous business, Esty, stating conclusions in a published work. You write them in a book, and if you don't keep your head, there is no knowing what you might miss.

As to the bells, I left them out deliberately. I could find no passage (prove me wrong! ) that states their usage as anything other than a signal.

More when I have time to do your post justice...
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Old 05-03-2010, 04:15 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
Thank you for adding that reference, Legate! I do appreciate thoughtful and knowledgeable readers! I did miss that orc passage and have noted it for future use.

It's a dangerous business, Esty, stating conclusions in a published work. You write them in a book, and if you don't keep your head, there is no knowing what you might miss.

As to the bells, I left them out deliberately. I could find no passage (prove me wrong! ) that states their usage as anything other than a signal.

More when I have time to do your post justice...
Well, you're welcome. And from now on at least you will be more careful, on the other hand, had you not mentioned that in there, I might not have been reminded of the Orcs' horns in the first place, so I guess in the end it was positive. After all, learning is a process, and that goes even for learning about the depths of Middle-Earth.

As for the bells, I have mentioned it mainly since you mention the bells in Minas Tirith (even though briefly) in there as well. But true, they were not really used otherwise than for signals.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
As for the bells, I have mentioned it mainly since you mention the bells in Minas Tirith (even though briefly) in there as well. But true, they were not really used otherwise than for signals.

Which ties back nicely to the renaissance Italy analogy as the reason that Italian towns had such high church towers during this period was

a) they doubled as watchtowers, helping watch out for enemies
b) rining the bells in a certain way could be used to signal to the next village that help was needed.

Also, at the time, church towers were often occupied by watchers whose job it was to keep their eyes strained for and signs of fire breaking out in the cramped streets of old cities. To assure citizens that the watcher was not asleep he had to play his trumpet at given intervals. The tunes they played were set and passed on from one generation of watchers to the next and so remained virtually unchanged for centuries. In Cracow such a watch still exists today although it is more for tradition as I assume other fire protection mechanisms now exist.

Later, as clock-making arts improved, church bells were mechanised and so could play the tunes without needing a watchman. This coincided with improvements in the ways cities were built so reducing he risk of fire. Today tower chimes (as for example that of Big Ben in Westminster) thus hail to a much older tradition which would once have seen the tunes being played manually.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:03 AM   #6
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Interesting historical facts, shadowfax! Maybe a chapter on the use of bells in Tolkien's works would be a further project - though I'm not sure that there's enough written besides the mere mention of their use.
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Old 05-25-2010, 02:23 PM   #7
Faramir Jones
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Silmaril Bells in Valmar and Dale

I agree with what Esty said here to shadowfax

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
Interesting historical facts, shadowfax! Maybe a chapter on the use of bells in Tolkien's works would be a further project - though I'm not sure that there's enough written besides the mere mention of their use.
I can think offhand of two cities or towns Tolkien said were famous for their bells. In The Silmarillion, Chapter 1 said that 'when Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established, in the midst of the plain beyond the mountains they built their city, Valmar of many bells'. Was their maker Aulë, I wonder? Whoever made them, I'm sure that those bells must have been wonderful to hear, their sound staying in the memories of those Elves who returned to Middle-earth, and presumably getting into the historical record.

A second place is that of Dale, as described in The Hobbit. While Thorin spoke in Chapter 1 of its bells being used as a warning of Smaug's attack: 'By that time all the bells were ringing in Dale and the warriors were arming', that city is also later mentioned in Chapter 3 as being known for its bells, Elrond being 'grieved to remember the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells'.

Last edited by Faramir Jones; 05-25-2010 at 02:24 PM. Reason: I left something out
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