The Names of Sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think being called the abhorred was something that could have given him some perverse pleasure.

Well, that would be a good explanation for me too, had it not been for this note that Sauron does not allow anybody to use his name (the name "Sauron" itself, as logically follows Gimli's words and the meaning of the quoted paraghraph) - so it seems that he actually wasn't so happy about it. And Sauron really seems to have liked the "magnificant" titles rather than those that would make him seem downright horrible. For that matter, it is far more likely that the Mouth had some perverse pleasure in using the name "Sauron" as part of his name, he seems like a pretty perverted man in general.

As to the Mouth's name in Sauron's forces, I think it might actually have been 'Mouth', or 'the Speaker', or something like that. After all, his original identity had been swallowed up, so what else would they have called him?

Yes, agreed - I guess that's the point, there were no other names to call him by, and if he himself reputedly called himself as "the Mouth" (of Sauron??? Even inside Mordor???), why should the Mordorians even stop to think of a new name.

And Dakêsîntrah, thanks for posting the list too - good to have it here (although of course it does not say anything to the question as it is, that is, how was the name "Sauron" used and why especially in relation to people such as the Mouth).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, that would be a good explanation for me too, had it not been for this note that Sauron does not allow anybody to use his name (the name "Sauron" itself, as logically follows Gimli's words and the meaning of the quoted paraghraph) - so it seems that he actually wasn't so happy about it.

Well, is it possible Aragorn was simply wrong about Sauron not allowing that name to be spoken? As has been noted, in addition to the Mouth, the emissary sent to Erebor used Sauron too. Could Aragorn's statement have been based upon outdated information, maybe from the Second Age, which was the last time the Elves and Dúnedain had been involved in close contact with Sauron's forces? Perhaps by the Third Age, Sauron was at the point he didn't care anymore what the West called him, as long as his servants still feared and obeyed him.

EDIT- had this thought also.

Sauron was known only by that name to the West.

2951- Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor.

The Tale of Years

How would he have 'declared himself'? 'It is I, the one who you thought you beat in the Second Age. You took my Ring, but I'm back anyway. I will break you!' (couldn't resist the Rocky IV reference )
No. He would have named himself, by the moniker the west knew. 'I am Sauron. I will destroy you'.

I do think it likely he didn't want his own servants to use that name under normal circumstances. He was not only their ruler, but aspired to be their god as well. The generic names used by the Orcs, Him, the Top, etc., would have been adequate for them, and would have helped keep Sauron as a totem in their eyes, a figure they would only need to see as their Master.
But when dealing directly with those in the West, Sauron would suffice. Again, why not? The abhorred wasn't really all that demeaning, and it still seems likely Sauron would be amused by it, and probably proud of it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Inzil, I would agree with some of the things you say about Sauron's relation to the Orcs etc., but then, Aragorn was a person who has been traveling a lot, even more than Gandalf, to "Rhun and Harad (!)". I think if anybody knew by what names Sauron was called all over the world and in different cultures, it was him. Also, the idea that Sauron "does not permit his name to be spelt or spoken" must have had a good reason behind it - I mean, people must have had a good reason to believe it. Probably some proofs. And actually it seems far more likely that the experiences with the usage of Sauron's name for the Free Peoples would come from Sauron's emissaries rather than from the actual denizens of Mordor - after all, if there was any contact with Mordorians, it was more likely in the form of encountering emissaries (or in the form of combat, of course). And so, one can imagine that if encounters of this kind led people to believe that Sauron does not allow his servants to use his name, well, then it certainly must have been true. (Another way to learn this - and a reason to learn this - would have been when sending spies among Sauron's men to gather information for the West, and for such a spy not to give himself away it was essential to know that he should not use Sauron's name, as otherwise everybody would know that he is not a real servant of Sauron.)

And as for self-declaration, how about using the good, old title "Lord of the Rings"? I can't think of anything more fitting. (as he could not yet use the title "Lord of Middle-Earth")

[Sarumian]

I agree with the view that Sauron could feel some sort of satisfaction knowing about his enemies' fear and hatred. Having said that, his emissars were, probably, allowed to use this name when it was conveniet. In this respect he could also compare himself to his predecessor, Melkor, who had been known to his enemies as Morgoth.

Why The Mouth used it? I think, he wanted to make an impression, he could read in his counterparts' minds and that he was aware of what they thought. He also wanted to show such a level of confidence, at which this name doesn't make any harm neither to his mission, nor to his Master. Can this be another reason?


I also suppose that in line with 'The Great Eye' and 'Him', Sauron's servants could use the title 'The Dark Lord', as it had been written on The Ring, for it was respectful and precise at the same time. Wasn't it typical to use the tytle of a monarch instead of his/her name in autocratic states (e. g. the king, the queen, the emperor said or did something, not Henry, or Catherine etc.)?

[Pitchwife]

I think Zil has some good points. I can quite well imagine Sauron adopting the name he was given out of defiance in his dealings with the West - à la, "They call me The Abhorred? Let them; I'll teach them horror!" (Although this doesn't go quite so well with those other etymologies where Sauron means "foul stench" or something of the like.) And it's also likely that the policy about the use of that name was different in foreign relations and for his own forces.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I do think it likely he didn't want his own servants to use that name under normal circumstances. He was not only their ruler, but aspired to be their god as well.

Very true, and this in a somewhat perverse way reminds me of the Jewish taboo against using the proper name of God (YHWH). It's not unlikely that Sauron's followers (at least the lower ranks) were under a 'religious' prohibition to utter his name, so that they had to refer to him as The Great Eye, Him, etc. instead, much like the forbidden name YHWH was paraphrased with other names (Elohim, Adonai, Shaddai, The Holy One, The Most High etc.).
As for the use of Sauron by high-ranking servants of the Dark Lord, such as The Mouth or the emissary to Erebor, that's a difficult question. What exactly were their feelings for the master they served? Fear, of course - but aside from that? Did they still believe the propaganda and consider him admirable, or did they know exactly their lord was the Worst Abomination in Middle-earth but just couldn't help going on serving him? I'd think a sort of love-hate relationship (maybe with a good dose of self-loathing in the mixture) most likely; and in this case, it might indeed have given The Mouth a perverse pleasure to call his master by his right name (using diplomatic license as an excuse), although he probably wouldn't have dared to use it within the walls of Barad-dûr.
If only there wasn't that quite apodictic statement by Aragorn, which seems to contradict all that. Obsolete information on Aragorn's part is one possibility, and simple inconsistency on Tolkien's another (though this would be much too easy); But maybe there's a third. From the article I linked to above:

Originally Posted by Helge Fauskanger

In the Adûnaic (Númenorean) tongue, he was apparently known as Zigûr, the Wizard (SD:247, 250, cf. 437).
One Quenya word for “wizard” is sairon (LR:385), and I have actually seen a suggestion to the effect that Sairon was the actual name of this Maia, which his enemies punningly altered to Sauron when he joined Morgoth.

So maybe The Mouth and the other emissary actually used Sairon, and Frodo's witnesses (remember he, the presumed author of the Red Book, wasn't present at either of the occasions) misheard it as Sauron, the name they were familiar with? They could easily have taken the slight difference for dialectal pronunciation...

(One last thought: one of the meanings given for the adjective maira, from which Mairon is derived, is "precious". So at least the part of Sauron he put into the Ring still had the pleasure of being called by its proper name...)

EDIT: This took me forever to write, so I x-ed with PotH and Sarumian.)

[Inziladun]

Very insightful replies, I think.

Assuming Aragorn was right, I'm pretty much of the mind that there were two standards Sauron had regarding his name: one for his servants among themselves, and one for dealings with the West.
Aragorn, in that statement, is speaking of Orcs specifically, that they were not allowed to say or write Sauron. And I think that was likely true. Higher level servants, such as the Mouth, and the embassy to the King Under the Mountain, would have been given special permission to use the name that the West would know The Dark Lord by best.
I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron! As far as the Mouth knew, the enemy forces would quickly be crushed, and he would go on to his new abode in Orthanc as his reward. Would he have said something expressly forbidden by Sauron, with that knowledge?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron!

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.
On the other hand, I concede that The Mouth would have had to reckon with the possibility that some of his escort, who were within earshot, would inform The Eye on his improper language.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

And I get the feeling that we're just back-justifying genuine plotholes using the Translator's Conceit yet again... (We run into a similar problem with the fact that "Moria" which wasn't called "Moria" until post-Balrog still has "Moria" engraved on its doors.)

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

Last line of defense:
Eye? What Eye? I take it you don't mean PJ's olympic fire, so apart from the palantír and Sauron's searching spirit/will, was there ever any unmetaphorical Eye scrying from Barad-dûr? (Yeah, I've read that thread...)
But as you say I said above, the point is mute, so you're probably right.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, the main point is, I think, that the Mouth would just not dare to speak of Sauron like that in any case, unless he was really full of himself (which he probably was, but then, he was also intelligent enough not to get himself killed. Also, from the text we get the impression that he most likely spent half of his life by flattering Sauron - just take into account that he had really high status, if Sauron won, the Mouth would basically be close to being the second most powerful being in Middle-Earth - if we dismiss the Nazgul on the basis that they were basically still slaves, without entirely free will). In any case, he makes the impression of a total Sauron freak - just listen to him. If anybody is totally out of his mind and worships Sauron beyond anything, it's him. Total lunatic. He would never make jokes about his master. Apart from that, he seems to be a terrible showoff. Showing off his utter loyalty, that is. I mean, forgetting your own name and calling yourself "Mouth of Sauron" instead is enough of a proof.

By the way, good observation about the likely "religious taboo" status of Sauron's name among his own people. I have been thinking along the same lines. "Thou shalt not use the name of thy Lord" is most likely second or third commandment for the Mordorites as well.

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

The misinterpretation on the part of writers is at least a bit more sound argument - I could go with that one. Still, aren't there any other ideas? I am sure we are easily running out of possibilities, but I am just trying to get the best out of people

(And for that matter, even though I sound like dismissing them, I highly appreciate all the comments here this far - that's what I have been looking for, after all!)

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

Well, as has already been suggested, there is the possibility that Aragorn was right but that the Rule only applied to the "rank and file" of Mordor. Someone like The Mouth of Sauron would have been exempt.

In any case, as Sauron's emissary, The Mouth is literally speaking for Sauron. He is no mere servant or slave. He is Sauron's official representative, spokesman and proxy. Undoubtedly he is under strict instructions from Sauron himself and has been very carefully "coached".

Even in all his travels I'm sure Aragorn had never encountered the Mouth of Sauron, so I would simply say that when Aragorn made his statement "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," he simply hadn't anticipated a situation where an emissary of Sauron would be discussing terms with the Lords of the West. The only slight problem then is that Aragorn's statement implies that Sauron himself never uses his name - still, just because Sauron hasn't used it in the past doesn't mean he can't start using it now. Aragorn's statement should be interpreted as generally true - but it shouldn't be considered some kind of prophecy, as in "Never ever in the future will Sauron permit the use of his name".

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So maybe The Mouth and the other emissary actually used Sairon, and Frodo's witnesses (remember he, the presumed author of the Red Book, wasn't present at either of the occasions) misheard it as Sauron, the name they were familiar with? They could easily have taken the slight difference for dialectal pronunciation...

I was just going to suggest something with translation. The PoV character for this chapter was Pippin, who had no reason to think that Sauron had any other name. Probably Gandalf and/or Aragorn, who were much more learned, would have been able to tell the linguistic difference--and possibly Frodo himself, if his skill at pronunciation extended to being able to tease apart other people's vowels--but Pippin at least would have reported it as "Sauron."

Granted, the section where this happens is told pretty objectively (I don't think we get anyone's thoughts), so maybe I just undermined this whole argument.

And I get the feeling that we're just back-justifying genuine plotholes using the Translator's Conceit yet again... (We run into a similar problem with the fact that "Moria" which wasn't called "Moria" until post-Balrog still has "Moria" engraved on its doors.)