Thorondor as a Maia???

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

If so (correct me if I'm wrong about this previous part), Tolkien's conclusion to text VIII -- that the eagles are not Maiar but beasts raised to a higher level (but still without fear, as in plural of fea) -- could be in question, possibly being the result of a problem that may not really have been a problem (upon further reflection?). But yet, according to very next paragraph following the statement about Thorondor, even Tolkien seems to think Maiar could have descendants.

I don't think the Eagles of the First Age being incarnate Maia would preclude their procreating.
It seems likely to me that Shelob, as 'the last child of Ungoliant' was the product of such procreation.

The Eldar knew not whence [Ungoliant] came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

Silmarillion Of the Darkening of Valinor

The clear implicaton is that Ungoliant was of the Maia, and if she could mate while in the incarnate form of a spider, why not other Maia in the forms of eagles?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The clear implicaton is that Ungoliant was of the Maia, and if she could mate while in the incarnate form of a spider, why not other Maia in the forms of eagles?

It would certainly seem to follow that if Melian could have a child with an Elf by embodying herself as an Elf, then Maiar embodied as Eagles or Spiders or whatever could do the same, with creatures of the same kind as their embodiment. I would think that Tolkien wanted to avoid the possibility of interbreeding causing such oddities as a minotaur, gryphon, etc., creatures that crossed species. And by stating that the act of procreation in particular would bind their spirit -- their very being -- to physicality and thus diminish their power should they lose that body, it makes the prospect less appealing and thus less likely to happen over and over. Makes the rare times it does happen considerably more unique and special.

Still, Tolkien had a lot of ideas about the nature of the Ainur that changed over the years. As I recall, the Maiar were originally the Valarindi, the children of the Valar, and he dropped that notion over time.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

(...) Still, Tolkien had a lot of ideas about the nature of the Ainur that changed over the years. As I recall, the Maiar were originally the Valarindi, the children of the Valar, and he dropped that notion over time.

Generally speaking, the 'lesser' or 'following spirits' (literary precursors of the later Maiar) appear to have been distinct from the Children of the Valar even in the Lost Tales. For example Fionwe is the son of Manwe and Varda in the Lost Tales, but with Manwe and Varda came 'many of those lesser Vali who loved them' and these are the Manir and Suruli, the sylphs of the airs and winds (keeping in mind that in The Book of Lost Tales the term Valar did not refer to 'power' as in later conceptions).

In later texts the Children of the Valar were said to be 'accounted' among the Maiar, for instance, yet they were distinct by simply being the offspring of the Valar. At some points the Children of the Gods appear to be 'many'. A post-Lord of the Rings text, The Annals of Aman, helps show the distinction: '... and the Maiar and the Sons of the Valar were arrayed as for war.' (section 6), and...

'And with them [the Maiar] are numbered also the Valarindi, the offspring of the Valar, their children begotten in Arda, yet of the race of the Ainur who were before the world; they are many and fair.' Annals of Aman (section 1)