The Rohirrim, why horses?

[Iulbahar]

There is some archaeological evidence of a 'horse tribe' in England long before the Norman conquest, which I think Tolkien may have been referring to. (Don't ask for references right now as I'm too tired!)
As to the question 'Why horses?' My answer would be, you need to have experience of horses to understand. Even today, contact with horses changes lives. In previous centuries, even up to 100 years ago, possession and knowledge of horses gave you immense power, in the 'dark ages' even more so.
Personally I couln't live without horses, they are one of the few things that make life worthwhile, so I guess I would have been a Rider of Rohan in Middle Earth.

[Pitchwife]

Wow - another venerable shadow from the First Age of the Downs returning from the Halls of Mandos? Pleased to meet you, Iulbahar!

Originally Posted by Iulbahar

There is some archaeological evidence of a 'horse tribe' in England long before the Norman conquest, which I think Tolkien may have been referring to. (Don't ask for references right now as I'm too tired!)

You may be thinking of the White Horse of Uffington. It's quite impressive, and since I've seen it myself, I can't help imagining that the device on the Rohirrim's shields, white horse on a green field, looked somewhat like it.

[Raynor]

I would say we need to consider more the influence of Orome, who seems to have been known to them (Bema); they also seem to be quite acquainted with the mearas, who most likely are related to Nahar. The Rohirrim are also descendants of the Edain, which might have given them even greater perception of the standing of the mearas, at least. They must have become aware, at one level or the other, that near them were beings related to the blessed lands, likely filled with magical powers. Their natural affinity with the larger race of the horses might be a testimony to their affinity with the "Light side".

[Findegil]

What about the suggestiveness (is that actually a english word?) of the names of Anglosaxen leaders? Beside the legendary Hengest and Horsa and their contamporary Eomaer we have another bunch of horse related names some generations further down the line (e.g. Eormenric, Eorpwald). These names suggest a connection between the anglosaxson and Horses which is (and Was also in Tolkiens time) known to be not found archilogical relicts. But it night have influenced Tolkiens, who was profeionally very concentrated on words and names, in depicting the Rohirrim.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Rumil]

Evening all,

Some good points made on this thread already, just a few more comments-

The Uffington White Horse doesn't belong to the English, it's Celtic or more likely pre-Celtic, estimated as going back to 1000BC. By the way its a great place to have a look at on a sunny day, and Wayland's Forge (a proper Barrow on the Downs) is just round the corner.

The Eotheod, it's been said, seem to be like Goths, known for their horsemanship, and leading an unsettled, nearly nomadic lifestyle, following the herds. The Rohirrim have settled down a bit, building towns and putting down roots but some still have a nomadic life, following the herds across the green plains. This is a deliberate development by JRRT, and the names change from more Goth-y to more 'Anglo-Saxon' over their history.

As said, the Rohirrim had no reason to lose their horse-addiction, in fact they moved from an area in the Upper Anduin that was likely OK horse country down to Rohan that was excellent horse country - so no reason to change. The Anglo Saxons seem to have been coastal people and anyway had to invade Britain by boat, so horses not so culturally important I expect. This doesn't mean that the English never used horses, they had lots of them I'm sure. For a long time it was thought that the English never used horses in battle (eg Hastings) but this is not so clear-cut nowadays. A lot of evidence points to the Northumbrians using mounted warriors (eg carvings etc).

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by Rumil

As said, the Rohirrim had no reason to lose their horse-addiction, in fact they moved from an area in the Upper Anduin that was likely OK horse country down to Rohan that was excellent horse country - so no reason to change.

Maybe this comes from MERP, but I can't get it out of my head that when the Eotheod lived East of Mirkwood, they were called the Eothraim? Anyway, the rolling plains that stretch from Erebor to Rhun would certainly be conducive to a nomadic horse-culture. This being said, the Upper Vales are significantly different. The area near Framsburg was colder than the eastern plains and was comprised of hills and undulating lowlands. Rohirric culture, with its holds (Edoras, Helm's Deep, and Dunharrow), seems to be an amalgamation of the old nomadic culture of the East and the more sedentary hill-dwelling culture of the Upper Vales.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rumil

The Uffington White Horse doesn't belong to the English, it's Celtic or more likely pre-Celtic, estimated as going back to 1000BC.

You're right, of course, but don't tell G.K. Chesterton! In other words, archeological knowledge is one thing, folk tradition another, and I think I can see our Prof paying hommage to the latter whether or not he was aware of the former. To quote from the site I linked to in my earlier post:

Traditionally the horse is attributed to a number of famous figures, one of these is King Alfred, who is said to have had it constructed to commemorate his victory over the Danes in 871. The horse is also said to been cut by Hengist, the leader of the Anglo Saxon horde in the 5th century AD.

[Erchamion]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You're right, of course, but don't tell G.K. Chesterton!

Chesterton knew it was pre-Anglo-Saxon. In the Ballad of the White Horse, when he plays the harp among the Danes, Alfred says:

"All things achieved and chosen pass,
As the White Horse fades in the grass,
No work of Christian men.

“Ere the sad gods that made your gods
Saw their sad sunrise pass,
The White Horse of the White Horse Vale,
That you have left to darken and fail,
Was cut out of the grass."

So yeah, he knew it was really really old.

Your point about tradition vs. history is right, of course. But I just read The Ballad of the White Horse so I had to comment.

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Evening all,

Some good points made on this thread already, just a few more comments-

The Uffington White Horse doesn't belong to the English, it's Celtic or more likely pre-Celtic, estimated as going back to 1000BC. By the way its a great place to have a look at on a sunny day, and Wayland's Forge (a proper Barrow on the Downs) is just round the corner.

Yes sure, but in those days, people often identified with the land they occupied and one of the reasons they built barrows was to use their dead to show that they had occupied that particular area of land for a very long time. To some extenet they also cheated by "adopting" barrows etc that previous civilisations had left behind. hence obvious similarities between Anglo-Saxon burial mounds and bronze age barrows.

Although the White Horse at Uffington goes back thousands of years and is probably pre-Celtic, it would never have survived if not look after by local people. The chalk is soft and the grass grows quickly and in less than a lifetime there would be no visible remains left if ever peopel stopped looking after it. Hence we know that every single people or culture that occupied the area cared for and hence identified with the White Horse.

It is thus entirely fair to say that the White Horse was an Anglo Saxon symbol, just as it is right to say it was a Celtic or a pre-Celtic symbol. In Reading museum there is actually a bronze trinket that somebody must have worn around their neck. Guess who made it? The Romans. Guess what it depicts? The White Horse of Uffington.

[Dakêsîntrah]

[There is some archaeological evidence of a 'horse tribe' in England long before the Norman conquest]

I had always envisioned the Rohirrim as likened unto the Sarmatian horse people. The Romano-Britons were also very much like this, horse-people, who patterned much of their combat style after the Roman cavalry in Britain.