Sauron with the Seven (three recovered) & the Nine

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So can we speculate that the reason he held these lesser rings himself was to hasten his regeneration into the physical world?

It would also be helpful not to have the rings be lost whenever the Nazgul happened to be defeated in battle and their current material bodies destroyed, for example when they were drowned up near Rivendell. I always wondered why the elves didn't just recover the bodies and cut the rings off their fingers. Sauron's holding of the rings himself would explain it.

Of course, Sauron didn't have physical form yet either, so I suppose his minions in Mordor must have kept them for him in a safe place. It would be interesting to explore the ruins after Sauron was defeated, and look for them.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

I always wondered why the elves didn't just recover the bodies and cut the rings off their fingers.

There were no bodies. When Éowyn slew the Witch-King, only an empty mantle and hauberk were left on the ground. No corpse, no fingers to cut a Ring off.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

There were no bodies.

Well, search the clothing then. The rings should have remained at any rate, if they had been wearing them.

[Formendacil]

Without thinking long on the matter, it seems to me rather strange to suggest that Sauro would have retained for himself Rings that expressed turned one into a Wraith if his purpose were re-embodiment. Stretching his life into longevity would hardly be necessary when, as a Maia, he'd already cheated death and the destruction of his body.

No, it seems to me that Sauron wanted the 3 of Seven, and the Nine for reasons other than re-incorporating, a process which, in any case, I think only the One would have helped him with--not because it was a Ring, but because it was a Ring into which he had imbued so much of his power. It seems to me more that he wanted the Seven and the Nine for other reasons. Whatever other powers they might have, I'm not sure I'd want to speculate, but it might not have been for their powers at all, but simply so that, once he had the One again--or in case he did not recover it--he would not have other people running around with powerful Rings. In other words, not in order to use them, but to prevent other from using them.

Hmm... now I'm wondering... let's imagine that Gandalf or Saruman had the One Ring and was set on becoming the new Ringlord: would Sauron's possession of the Seven and Nine have been a defence against the Ringlord, or would they have weakened him against the Ringlord--as the Seven and Nine were meant to bend others to his will when he had the One?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Whatever other powers they might have, I'm not sure I'd want to speculate, but it might not have been for their powers at all, but simply so that, once he had the One again--or in case he did not recover it--he would not have other people running around with powerful Rings.

If he regained the One, why wouldn't he have wanted other people have the rest of the Rings? It was made to rule them all, wasn't it?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Without thinking long on the matter, it seems to me rather strange to suggest that Sauro would have retained for himself Rings that expressed turned one into a Wraith if his purpose were re-embodiment. Stretching his life into longevity would hardly be necessary when, as a Maia, he'd already cheated death and the destruction of his body.

But why would you expect Sauron, a maia, to turn into a wraith when the rings of power have different effects on specific races (e.g. dwarves not having the same reaction as men)? I did not argue for the Nine & the Seven's life-lengthening qualities, but for their virtue to enhance a bearer's natural powers, which was something Sauron greatly needed (after his severe reduction sans the One). And was this not his lore to begin with? I highly doubt he would become a thrall by his own creation (save maybe the One). Re-embodiment takes power and time. If his weakened state can gain some enhancement from the stolen three of the Seven and Nine, I don't see anything strange about that.

I'm not sure I'd want to speculate, but it might not have been for their powers at all, but simply so that, once he had the One again--or in case he did not recover it--he would not have other people running around with powerful Rings. In other words, not in order to use them, but to prevent other from using them.

But those rings were tainted. They were evil and worked towards evil even if Sauron does not wear the One. The Nine & Seven were not unsullied like the Three, for Sauron participated in their creation. Would it not be more profitable if the opposite were to occur: To have the Seven & the Nine rings scattered (regardless if the One is not recovered) and wreak havoc on their own?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But why would you expect Sauron, a maia, to turn into a wraith when the rings of power have different effects on specific races (e.g. dwarves not having the same reaction as men)? I did not argue for the Nine & the Seven's life-lengthening qualities, but for their virtue to enhance a bearer's natural powers, which was something Sauron greatly needed (after his severe reduction sans the One). And was this not his lore to begin with? I highly doubt he would become a thrall by his own creation (save maybe the One). Re-embodiment takes power and time. If his weakened state can gain some enhancement from the stolen three of the Seven and Nine, I don't see anything strange about that.

Do the Seven and the Nine enhance the wearer's powers? I'm not at all clear that they do. Each of the Nazgûl were powerful in their own right before they got hold of a Ring.

In any case, I was not saying that Sauron would have become a wraith if he'd used the Seven and Nine. Obviously not, since the One had no such effect. My question was whether they'd be of any use to Sauron in terms of regenerating, since wraithifying was the intended effect of the Seven and Nine on Men--more so, I dare say, than giving them power: power was merely to be a lure for enslaving the wearer to Sauron's will.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But those rings were tainted. They were evil and worked towards evil even if Sauron does not wear the One. The Nine & Seven were not unsullied like the Three, for Sauron participated in their creation. Would it not be more profitable if the opposite were to occur: To have the Seven & the Nine rings scattered (regardless if the One is not recovered) and wreak havoc on their own?

If the Seven and the Nine merely weaken people to be dominated by evil, then yes. In such a case, however, then Sauron would not have wanted to recover them at all, and certainly not to help him regenerate. If, however, the Rings have a power about them do something "positive" (by which I certainly do not mean "good"), then they could be used as a force against him.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Well, search the clothing then. The rings should have remained at any rate, if they had been wearing them.

It's nowhere in the canon, but I've alawys imagined that by the third age the Wrath and his ring were in all respects the same thing, that, if you could destroy a wraiths ring you would instatly destroy the wraith much as with the one ring. I als think this might have worked the other way in the case of a wraith, if you destroyed the wraith permanently his ring is destroyed as well. I have an image in my mind of Sauron at the Moment Eowyn slew the WK looking down at his hand the the WK's ring cracking and falling to pieces.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It's nowhere in the canon, but I've alawys imagined that by the third age the Wrath and his ring were in all respects the same thing, that, if you could destroy a wraiths ring you would instatly destroy the wraith much as with the one ring. I als think this might have worked the other way in the case of a wraith, if you destroyed the wraith permanently his ring is destroyed as well. I have an image in my mind of Sauron at the Moment Eowyn slew the WK looking down at his hand the the WK's ring cracking and falling to pieces.

I'd say the Ringwraiths indeed would die if the Nine that enslaved them were destroyed. After all, it was the power of those rings, and their link to the One, that kept the wraiths walking the earth long after they should have died. But the rings themselves would not have been so tied to their 'masters'. They were under the power of Sauron and the One, and would have endured as long as he and it did.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Of course, Sauron didn't have physical form yet either,"


Nonsense! That's creeping movie-ism. Sauron was corporeal at the end of the Third Age.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Sauron was corporeal at the end of the Third Age.

Tolkien seemed to think he did have form, at least partially developed, but whether it was yet fully formed, or just how "corporeal" it was, we can't know.