General changes in TftE

[Tar-Telperien]

Hello. I have returned from an absence of years; my interest in this project has recently been renewed. You're still doing such excellent work after all these years. I've not had much of a part aside from offering simple suggestions here and there, which I'm about to do again.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in –estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.

I'm afraid this won't work, for phonological reasons if nothing else. The consonant cluster -str- appears to be disallowed in later Sindarin. For example, the terms nothrim 'house' and nothlir 'family line' come from the word nost; when the word is compounded, -st because -th- to avoid the disallowed combinations -str- and -stl-. This process also happens in the very term Gondothrimbar, one of the other names of Gondolin: it is gond + ost + rim + bar. The compound **ostrim is impossible, so it becomes othrim instead. Thus, "Gwarestrin" as such has to be replaced by something else.

We seem to have a few options:

1. The most conservative one is simply to replicate the phonological process discussed above and replace Gwarestrin with Gwarethrin. I would have suggested this, but since Tolkien later replaced Gwareth with Gwared, it might be better to do something else, since the concept of a voiceless consonant at the end of the word has been done away with.

2. Therefore, another option is to use Gwaredrin, or something similar, thus preserving Tolkien's later preference of Gwared over Gwareth. (I am confused about the morphological boundary of this word. Is it Gwares-trin, or Gwarest-rin, or Gwar-estrin, or what?)

3. The third option would be to get rid of the (surely outdated) suffix -trin or whatever it is, along with changing the phonology. I lean toward this, but it would require more conjecture and editorial intrusion. What I'm most tempted to suggest is Minas Gwared, since minas was a common designation of citadels in later Sindarin. It works perfectly with the translation given in the text (Tower of Guard) and preserves the clear connection between the name of the city and the hill it stands on that exists in the original term Gwarestrin. The problem with this one, of course, is that it takes the most liberty with the text and ruins the alliteration of the Seven Names: all the names of Gondolin aside from Loth and Loth-a-laden start with G. Perhaps Gwarmindon could work? Mindon means an isolated hill with a central watch tower, which is essentially what Gondolin was.

EDIT: Okay, after having looked it up in the Fall of Gondolin names list, estrin apparently combines esc and tirin. If we want to be conservative, we could put that extra i back in and call it Gwarestirin. The well-known tir root would become more visible that way, in addition to the word being phonologically correct.

I don't know enough about Sindarin to come up with any other options. But it would seem that something has to be done about this glaring phonological error.

[Findegil]

It seems we have 2 open ends in this thread:

Bauglir -> Baugron:
It seems that Tolkien made a kind of standarisation of names late in his life. We already adopted Tauros -> Tauron, in another thread we discuss Maedros -> Maedron. All in all this makes the changes more consistent to me. I would adopt both Maedros -> Maedron and Bauglir -> Baugron

Gwarestrin -> ???
I think it would not be good to produce any new name like 'Minas Gwared' or 'Gwarmindon'. I would rather go with the conservativ approach and use 'Gwarestirin'.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello, two new proposals:

Change {Erchamion}[Erchamon] per Eldarin, hands, Fingers and Numerals, VT47g 7

include only in the Valaquenta an allusion of Mairon as the original name of Sauron per Words, Phrases and passages PE17, pg183:
for example:
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was [Mairon,] that spirit whom the Eldar [later] called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning...

Greetings

[Findegil]

{Erchamion}[Erchamon]: I think since 'Eldarin, hands, Fingers and Numerals' is a late text, this change is to be adopted.

The intorduction of 'Mairon' as Saurons real name isn't really a general change. But it is a good idea and I will post the proposed change in the thread discussing the Valaquenta.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

{Palúrien}[Kementári] by a pencilled change on LQ 2. This was as it were a casual change, not made in §15 (nor in §5). Kementári occurs in the Valaquenta (p. 202).

This was discussed in the thread about the Ainulindalë as AINU-14. The change will become more prominet in the Valaquenta in is therefore taken up to be a general one.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

A general change found in the linguistic material discussed for insertion into chapter 4:

{Eglath}[ Egladrim] per Q&E.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

4 new general changes:
{Endon}[Endor] per AAm

The reference to the site of Kuivienen is interesting. Of this no more is said in the other tradition than that it lay ‘in the East of the Middle-earth’ (QS $20, preserved throughout the later texts). In AAm Kuivienen lay N.E. of Endon, the midmost point. In the list of names accompanying the Ambarkanta (IV. 241) appears ‘ambar-endya or Middle Earth of which Endor is the midmost point’, and Endor is written over the centre of the middle-land in the Ambarkanta diagrams (IV.243,245) — on the map (IV.248-9) it is marked as a point: ‘Endor Earth-middle’, and here it was corrected to Endon, the form in the present passage of AAm, though later changed back again to Endor (so also on the typescript of AAm my father corrected Endon to Endor here and in $41, p. 80). See IV.254-5.

{Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] per Sil77. It also corosponds to the spelling in LotR (see e.g. Ered Nimrais).

{Eredwethion}[Ered Wethrin] per Sil77.

{Palisor}[Endor] per QS77. See as well {Endon}[Endor].

Respectfully
Findegil