Tol-in-Gaurhoth LXVIII: A Full Moon Over Innsmouth

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

So...Hakon has played many games, and therefore should have some better logic by now I would think. His vote and comments are weird and I don't like them so

++ Hakon

Okay, but THAT screams "wolf" to me. Because really. I completely disagree with what Hakon did (and I said so), but then, if you try to think of it deeper... Would Hakon do such a thing as a Wolf? Or, is it any indication of his wolfishness? Also, like I said, I can well imagine even innocent Hakon being so "rude" and vote in the way he did. Also, what is the Wolves' purpose? It's to find a person whom the others suspect and vote for him/her as well, in order to hide in the crowd, or to find somebody to whom they can draw the suspicion of other villagers. But would what Hakon just did be a good opportunity to find a target for the village? I doubt it. I doubt Hakon-Wolf could have hoped for getting Inzil lynched by saying what he did. These were no reasons which would create a bandwagon.
But voting for Hakon at the moment when it seems that there is a good point to catch on, now that is what wilwa does. And that actually looks like a good start of a bandwagon, indeed! That's why it screams wolfy to me. And anyway, wilwa, if you are accusing Hakon of having bad logic and that he should be better, look at your own vote for him. "I don't like him" is about as bad logic as Hakon uses. No, really. You are either being hypocritical, or being a Wolf.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Now, Nienna does react unusually strong to Morsul's vote. But, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, at the time of Morsul's vote Nienna hadn't spoken yet had she? I myself was annoyed and angry Morsul listed me as a suspect in one of his earliest posts based on the narration. I see where Nienna's response would be seen as a red flag, but I'm having a hard time finding it overly suspicious.

Not really, but one mistaken vote of one newbie? It can be seen where Morsul is coming from. My point is, had I been in Ni's place, I would have ignored his vote. It has no real substance behind it, so why should it worry me? Especially if Morsul realised that he cannot base his suspicions on things like that. Everything's all right, then. I got one vote, but happens (if he voted for me at the moment when I already have four votes and am at the risk of being lynched, then it would be something different). Of course it's possibly a shock at first, but then when you see the reasons and the background for it, it really isn't an issue. And I am saying this because I got the feeling about Ni that her reaction would not have been so different from mine when it comes to that.

Originally Posted by Kit

3) I spoke considerably on Wilwa's suggestion for everyone to talk more, regardless of what they said in my last post and I'd like to finish up a thought on that.
As I said before she makes a good point about these posts helping on Day 2, but this suggestion worries me as well. If we have half the village just repeating the same things or just doing random in character gibberish then we have nothing Day 2 and it essentially becomes almost like a second Day 1. I think everyone should post, but if people flood the thread with nonsense it becomes just as easy for wolves to hide behind that as it is to hide behind a mask of quietness. Wilwa should know this and that makes me wonder why she put the idea of "make lots of noise" out there in the first place.

That's a fair point too, though personally I am not worried by that in particular with wilwa. I think this could be perfectly innocent comment. (But I have different reasons for suspecting wilwa - cf. above.)

[Pitchwife]

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?
About that Hakon-Inzil thing, I don't know - Zil has a knack for making himself suspicious and getting lynched early, so he's not an unlikely target for a wolf-started bandwagon, though I'd expect that to be done with a little more reasoning. On the other hand, as far as I can see Hakon is consistently being himself - hunches, weird reasons and all; not that he couldn't still be a wolf (as could Zil) - I haven't yet seen what a Hakon-wolf looks like and might not recognize it before it bites me in the nose.
Not that all this leaves me (or you) any the wiser...

[Nogrod]

Okay.

Apart from Nienna I seem to have only one decent pair of candidates which is Lari and wilwa - and I need to run for the choir rehearsals in a moment.

Now I see many people have raised concerns with wilwa but just suggesting that people should talk a lot even if they don't have a lot to say is not the greatest possible argument against her. Actually it doesn't make her look guilty in any way. But the sudden defence of her by Lari (with actual points why - which she gave practically of none else) when some suspicion started to emerge raises my eyebrows to be sure.

I just saw Nienna's post and am not sure what to say of it. Her explanation feels genuinish but it reminds me of yet one thing that looked so overdefensive about her, eg. quoting herself in the admin. thread before the roles were dealt. If that is not over-defensive then what is?

And I am a bit confused about her vote as well...

Bah. Needs to vote now.

++ Nienna


EDIT: X'd with Kit

[A Little Green]

I'm here and reading, have less time than I thought so I'll probably have to suffer SPM and Nogrod's wrath and be very inactive toDay.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now I see many people have raised concerns with wilwa but just suggesting that people should talk a lot even if they don't have a lot to say is not the greatest possible argument against her. Actually it doesn't make her look guilty in any way. But the sudden defence of her by Lari (with actual points why - which she gave practically of none else) when some suspicion started to emerge raises my eyebrows to be sure.

I just saw Nienna's post and am not sure what to say of it. Her explanation feels genuinish but it reminds me of yet one thing that looked so overdefensive about her, eg. quoting herself in the admin. thread before the roles were dealt. If that is not over-defensive then what is?

Hmm, well, I don't really think so. Like I said, now I am calmed by her explanation. But okay, you may disagree - still though, I would like to know (perhaps later if you are not around now, then), why Nienna and not wilwa, as it seems to me that your level of suspicion of the both of them seems more or less the same. So, just something if you could do me a favor and elaborate on it a bit.

EDIT: x-ed with Kitanna

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I'm inclined to agree with you about her vote, but for different reasons. It seems stranger to me that she would accuse him of not having sound logic having played so many games in the past, considering I feel the same way about her own suggestion of making noise.

Yep, I have mentioned this reason as well (as the second paraghraph of my comment on her).

Originally Posted by Nienna

The first time I responded I believed he had voted for me because of the role I chose. I wanted to clarify that I chose the character before roles were assigned. I also wanted to let him know that those are not good reasons to vote for someone. It may have seemed a little defensive because there were a few games where people have lynched me on Day One for bad reasons and I didn't'/don't want that to happen again.

Hope that clears that up.

Okay, fine with me. I guess I can see your point now, or accept it.

By the way, speaking of that...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?

Okay, this is actually once again one moment where I am becoming unsure of Pitchwife. First, it looks slightly like... well, in his whole last post, he is basically stemming from things I said (or also Nogrod for that matter, etc.). It could be sort of like a Pitchwolf picking up some people of the more vocal sort and trying to make a good eye for himself by agreeing with them. Also, using their arguments as basis while expressing slight doubt would be a good cover for a Wolf in order not to need to make up any own reasons.
Secondly also, I don't think I have ever mentioned Nienna's reaction as being wolfish. In fact, indeed I have only expressed my wonder. (And now I take her explanation as acceptable.) So I wonder where this "wolfishness" came from, if it's supposed to have come from me, it could hint on some thought processes which perhaps read what they want to read (a Wolf wishing to read a suspicion being raised, so that he can continue on it)?
It may not be so, of course, and it can be interpretated in many ways. But it just again raises my awareness of Pitchwife.

EDIT: x-ed since Kitanna

[Kitanna]

I got called into work early, so I have to vote now.

I'm starting to wonder about Nienna based on her vote. That's not enough for me to vote for her though. I'm curious as to what she has to say regarding it. That said...

++ Wilwa

I've said before what I think of Wilwa and her idea, no need to repeat them in their entirety. In short, to me it looks like she could be calling for noise to hide in. Her vote doesn't help her either. She voted for Hakon based on his vote, accusing him of something that she is doing herself. Maybe I'm completely misjudging Wilwa, but right now she looks the most unusual to me.

[Roa_Aoife]

++SPM

Because he has been throwing around suspicion as if it had the full weight of sound reasoning behind it when it didn't. And also because in all of his actual suspicions (not counting the banter) someone else expressed if not suspicion then unease or wariness in that direction first, which he then played up into a case with no merit.

Some people have a hard time showing up on Day 1, so I'm going to let Brinn go for now, but if she does the same toMorrow, I will vote for her.

Edit: crossed with kitanna down

[Pitchwife]

Time to get serious.

++SpM
While his is not the only poorly reasoned vote up to now, I'd surely expect better from him if he was innocent. Even the case he made against me was better than the one he based his vote on.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Time to get serious.

++SpM
While his is not the only poorly reasoned vote up to now, I'd surely expect better from him if he was innocent. Even the case he made against me was better than the one he based his vote on.

Not that I disagree with the suspicion (obviously) but that looks a bit bandwagony.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Not that I disagree with the suspicion (obviously) but that looks a bit bandwagony.

Yes, it does.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Not that I disagree with the suspicion (obviously) but that looks a bit bandwagony.

You think I don't know that? I would have preferred to handle this more subtly, if I could, but just so we don't mess up:
I know for a fact The Saucepan Man is a wolf.
How? Well, guess!
I'm the Dreamer.

[Lariren Shadow]

Awake and commenting.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Somehow the way how Lari makes her comment on wilwa strikes me: It may be that she just wished to express herself differently (there are many of whom she says only "seems innocent" or "pretty innocent looking" etc.). But of wilwa she says that we should keep her around with actual backing / arguments for why she thinks so. And I think there had been some suspicions raised on wilwa, so that would fit "nicely" ...

I really only meant to change up what I was saying. I did my list from the bottom up, got tired of saying "seems innocent" and decided to go with a different spin. Although the fact that you're jumping on it makes me alarm bells ring.

To add to the Nienna reaction: I didn't see anything more than her trying to point out rules to a newbie. She might have also been slightly annoyed because she can get lynched Day 1 and doesn't like it.

I'm still trying to figure out who to vote for. But in the mean time I did a vote count:
Morsul --> Nienna
Hakon --> Inzil
Loslote --> Pitch
Crayon --> Inzil(2)
Wilwa --> Hakon
SPM --> Loslote
Nienna --> Pitch(2)
Nog --> Nienna(2)
Kitanna --> Wilwa
Roa --> SPM
Pitch --> SPM (2)

In order of getting the most votes: Inzil, Pitch, Nienna, and SPM with 2. Hakon, Loslote, and Wilwa 1.

[Inziladun]

All right, fine.

++ SPM

If this turns out to be a bust, we'll have an obvious target toMorrow.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, but THAT screams "wolf" to me.

I'm inclined to agree with you about her vote, but for different reasons. It seems stranger to me that she would accuse him of not having sound logic having played so many games in the past, considering I feel the same way about her own suggestion of making noise.

My point is, had I been in Ni's place, I would have ignored his vote.

I feel this is just a matter of how different players react to different scenarios. I probably would have reacted the same as Nienna, which is why I'm willing to take her reaction as a panicked innocent rather than a panicked wolf. I'd rather see what how Nienna reacts when she receives a vote that is more than just a newbie's confusion. If the reaction is the same, then perhaps there's some merit to what Legate and Nogrod have said. For now I prefer to wait and see when it comes to Nienna.

Originally Posted by Roa

I don't like Brinniel's post at all. By the time she posted there was a lot to comment on, but instead of doing anything useful, she posted a lot of bantering fluff. If she contributes not further I will likely vote for her.

I wonder if this is just Brinn's playing style though? I can't recall Brinn's first few posts, in any game, ever being more than "fluff".

Edit: x-posted with Pitchwife

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I wonder if this is just Brinn's playing style though? I can't recall Brinn's first few posts, in any game, ever being more than "fluff".

Hence the disclaimer "If she contributes no further." After last game (a bit of meta-gaming but can't be helped) I am far more cautious of those that seem to be hiding in the shadows with no one able to get a real feel for them.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Hence the disclaimer "If she contributes no further." After last game (a bit of meta-gaming but can't be helped) I am far more cautious of those that seem to be hiding in the shadows with no one able to get a real feel for them.

Apologies, I missed the "If she contributes no further".

Originally Posted by Nienna

I'm hesitant to vote Hakon because he is usually lynched early just because of his playing style.

So then does that mean you find something unusual about his playing style and/or vote? I'm confused because this is really the first mention you've made of who you suspect and I'm not even sure you suspect him.
And Nienna probably won't be on again to answer my queries before Day 1 ends, but why Pitchwife? I realize this is a random/gut vote, but what Pitchwife say to give you a gut feeling in the first place?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?

Not necessarily, no... and perhaps not so much of an overreaction. I mean, it's all too easy for a silly vote on Day One to turn into a bandwagon.

However, this is pinging my radar a bit–

Originally Posted by Nienna

I'm hesitant to vote Hakon because he is usually lynched early just because of his playing style.

The following is somewhat meta-game reasoning, I guess, but anyway– that happens to be very close to a quote from a Nerwolf on Day One last game. That is, I voted for somebody else while explaining why I wasn't going to lynch Hakon just because of his history of being lynched early... with the subtext that hey, look everyone, this guy's actually pretty darned lynch-worthy *hint**hint*

Interestingly, I believe Nienna was the only goodie in that game who picked up what I'd done... Could a Wolfienna have remembered it as a useful technique? I'd certainly be flattered if that's the case.

*shrug* You could argue the other way, and say that a Wolfienna wouldn't use the same method in the very next game, especially when I'm playing too.

X'd with a host, including Pitchy's revelation. Well, well.

[Roa_Aoife]

Vote count (because I want one)

Morsul-> Nienna (Very confusing. Brush it off to newbieness, but I hope to see more today)
Hakon-> Inzil (Meta-game reasons, but better than picking a name out of a hat, in my opinion.)
Loslote-> Pitch (Perhaps poor reasoning, but still better than a name out of a hat.)
Crayon-> Inzil (2) (No reason given, hopefully he will have something when he returns toMorrow)
Wilwa-> Hakon (Seems to be confusing Hakon's statement about SPM with his reason for voting Inzil)
SPM-> Loslote (Poor case made to look solid)
Nienna-> Pitch (2) (Gut-vote, I don't have a problem with it)
Nogrod-> Nienna (2) (At least he has a case which he admits is flimsy)
Kitanna-> Wilwa (I don't see an issue with her reasons)
Roa-> SPM (well...)
Inzil-> SPM (2) (Odd way to jump on like that, even if I do agree)

edit: crossed. *sigh* way to panic

[Inziladun]

I guess it's possible Pitch could be the Agent, but trusting him for now seems to be the logical thing to do. At least we'll have somthing concrete to go on toMorrow, one way or the other.