Nature/Cause of the weariness of Eldar in the Third Age

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That's why those elves dwelling in the West had no such problems, living in the platonic world of perfectness as they were. And because of that gap between men and the elves we men can never really understand the bliss of an ever-unchanging world the elves might long for - and therefore the only meaning given to us humans is, like Gandalf says "deciding what to do with the time that is given to us".

That's exactly it. And that's why the Elves were so overwhelmed with the sight of Men with their ridiculously short lives doing feats that equaled or sometimes surpassed those of the immortal Elves - just because of this. They are given such a short live in the Circles of the World, but that can serve as a motivation, and - okay, here I would disagree with Eönwë - it can lead them to actually care more of their actions, and of their effect in the future. If they do care, then they face only one problem - that of their short life, which means little experience, and being prone to do all sorts of stupid things based on miscalculations (like Isildur not destroying the Ring, being so full of himself).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

it can lead them to actually care more of their actions, and of their effect in the future.

I wouldn't exactly like to go theological on this one but I do agree with this a hundred times!

When it's the one life you have and limited one as such, then every word you say and every act you do counts. The less days you have, the more precious (), the more meaningful they are.

Sadly many people seem to think they live forever and do not care...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

it can lead them to actually care more of their actions, and of their effect in the future.

So you mean sort of to leave their mark upon the world before they leave? That is a good point.What I meant is that they are more likely to make rash decisions, so even if they are doing things for the right reasons, they sometimes get things wrong. And more importantly, they are more irresponsible because they know they only have a short time to do things, so they make the most of it. If they get it right, then they have performed a deed of great valour, but if they get wrong they don't live to see its effects. Now, even if they try to, it is harder for Men to see the long-term effects of their actions than Elves because they have not lived as long and have not had the experience. The Elves would be much slower and more careful, because they literally had eternity, while the Men cared about the present, because that is when they lived.

Also, great people are measured in this case by single great deeds. For example, take Cirdan. He has probably killed more orcs and given more good counsel and helped more people than any human (and possibly even elf as well), but he is not remembered as one of the great because he does it slowly over a period of time.

It is for this reason also that the elven kingdoms change much less rapidly than human kingdoms. Land for Men in Middle-Earth is lost and gained much faster than for elves, because elves are more reserved in the Third Age. In the First Age, all of Middle-Earth was new to them, and they were much more rash, but by the Third Age, they were settled, whereas Men, with their population so rapidly changing, are always on the move in comparison, and mostly either advance or gain land in leaps, or lose a lot in a short period of time. In our real history this is true as well- many great empires have expanded very quickly.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So you mean sort of to leave their mark upon the world before they leave? That is a good point.What I meant is that they are more likely to make rash decisions, so even if they are doing things for the right reasons, they sometimes get things wrong. And more importantly, they are more irresponsible because they know they only have a short time to do things, so they make the most of it. If they get it right, then they have performed a deed of great valour, but if they get wrong they don't live to see its effects. Now, even if they try to, it is harder for Men to see the long-term effects of their actions than Elves because they have not lived as long and have not had the experience. The Elves would be much slower and more careful, because they literally had eternity, while the Men cared about the present, because that is when they lived.

Exactly think of the "rash" and "ever anxious" Boromir, who had noble intentions (saving his people, bu also wanting to make his own "glory") but probably would not have lived to see the full consequences had he been able to sieze the Ring and claimed it for Gondor.

As opposed to the much more thoughtful (and Elven) Faramir, who loved Gondor just as much as Boromir, but knew and cared, what the Ring would do had he claimed it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Exactly think of the "rash" and "ever anxious" Boromir, who had noble intentions (saving his people, bu also wanting to make his own "glory") but probably would not have lived to see the full consequences had he been able to sieze the Ring and claimed it for Gondor.

Well, that's basically what I meant by my last sentence in the former post:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If they do care, then they face only one problem - that of their short life, which means little experience, and being prone to do all sorts of stupid things based on miscalculations (like Isildur not destroying the Ring, being so full of himself).

I think, of course there are those who don't care about the future at all, but I think they are not too many. Generally I think it's either too much of pride or something, which is on the way ("Men of Gondor would never fall to the Ring") even in contrary to all the facts (think of all the revolutions in the name of good are something that shows the same pattern in our history), or just closing one's ears to everything and pretending that future does not exist, or that the concerns that are there do not exist (like maybe it was even for Isildur, "but the Dark Lord is dead - no problem with taking his Ring, and Elrond and Círdan, hush, hush, I never heard what they were telling me").

[skip spence]

Boro88 has a good point in that Middle Earth is a more fitting place for Men than the Eldar who rather belong in the Undying Lands. The fading of the Elves really began already with the first rising of the Sun, when the growth and decay of all things sped up and the Second People arose.

There's also another point I'd like to bring up. It is easy to think that Elves are like Men more or less apart from having practically an unlimited life-span and a few special skills. That is not the case though I believe. Men are as a people fallen (though destined to rise above it) and are burdened down with original sin; they make war and slay each other, they plunder, steal, rape, cut down entire forests, hunt beasts and catch fish until extinction, poison the air and the waters and, well, the list goes on and on. Men of course not being a fantasy-creation, they are us.

Elves on the contrary are not fallen as a people, though there might be individual bad apples. Unlike Men, Elves exist in harmony with nature, taking only what they really need, and using that with respect and love. It's written somewhere that Elves love the things in nature for what they are, and wish not to change them. Development is therefore not something the Elves really care for, unless we're talking about a new clever idea in linguistics or art or something similar, and although they might have the brains to invent the mustard gas or the fax machine, they have no will for it.

Men on the other hand appreciate the things in nature rather for what use they have of them, and when that utility is gone they can discard them without care and move on to the next best thing, which is always better than what they have now. Men are always driven forward, they are restless and the grass is always greener on the other side.

With this in mind I think the Elves realized that they could not in the end co-exist with Men on Earth. I mean, just look at the history of the human race. The winners are always the most effective killers, or the most manipulative power-players. The most organized, efficient and powerful conquering rulers destroy or subjugate the timid and the meek, or the less accomplished power-players and murderers, that's how it's always been - history is one long arms- and ideology-race. In order to remain in Middle Earth as a Power, the Eldar would eventually have to take part in that game, and as this was something that went completely against their nature they would rather leave for the Undying Land. At least that's my take on it.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Maybe they were just REALLY tired of arguing about whether or not balrogs had wings...

[Mithalwen]

Guess we are all elves then Fordim...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I wouldn't exactly like to go theological on this one but I do agree with this a hundred times!

When it's the one life you have and limited one as such, then every word you say and every act you do counts. The less days you have, the more precious (), the more meaningful they are.

Sadly many people seem to think they live forever and do not care...

Is it not very naive to think that you can create a rule that will aply to all mankind?

If some men are wise, some rash, some stupid and some made of jam then surely they will not all reason alike. So some might reason that because of their limited time in ME, they will only have one shot at making it right and thus care more, but others might think otherwise.

Anyways the point about ME being a rapidly changing place is a very good one and I must admit I found it rather enlightening to read through this thread.

It probably cannot explain everything. . . as it was stated earlier there seem to be a difference between the different groups of elves and how weary they are of life in ME. It does seem to me that high elves have a longing for days of yore, when life was young and sweet in Valinor. Others seem to have a sence of an era comming to an end and a longing for the sea (hell, I have a longing for the sea), but it does not seem as hughe a thing as it does to high elves.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

If some men are wise, some rash, some stupid and some made of jam then surely they will not all reason alike. So some might reason that because of their limited time in ME, they will only have one shot at making it right and thus care more, but others might think otherwise.

Exactly... and thus some people find meaning and responsibility from their short life-spans and need no other incentives; others search for it in God or whatever and the third kind feel their lives are meaningless and thus try to fill it with whatever they think could fill the void (whatever the commercial culture tells them to fill their next second with before they need to buy something else to fill their lives)...